Palestinians Under Siege: A Visit to the Occupied West Bank

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It's time for you and me to
stand up for ourselves.

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Welcome to Unwashed and Unruly,
where we turn over stones and

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see what crawls out.
Today we're talking about

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Israel's war of annihilation
against Palestinians, not only

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in Gaza, but through expulsion
and terror in the West Bank.

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I'm your host Lola Michaels,
joined by Ezra Saeed.

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Hi, Lola.
Hi everyone.

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And Cam Cruz.
Hey, guys.

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And today we have a special
guest, a New York based

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organizer who works with
Palestinian women organizers in

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the Northern West Bank, Simone
Deckard.

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Hi, Simone.
Hi.

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You can find all our episodes on
our website unwashedun-ruly.com,

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forget to rate and review the
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While we watch in horror the
ongoing genocide in Gaza, the

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Nakba has continued and
intensified in the occupied West

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Bank.
Israel's occupation of the West

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Bank is one of the longest
military occupations in the

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world today.
We'll get an eyewitness account

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from the ground.
We'll talk about how Israel is

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tightening its control of
Palestinian towns and villages

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through daily military raids,
home demolitions, mass arrests,

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torture, destruction of crops,
constant settler violence and

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surveillance.
It all started when the Zionist

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movement took over 80% of
Palestine and forcibly displaced

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hundreds of thousands of native
Palestinians in 194748.

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The Israeli state completed its
takeover by seizing the Golan

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Heights, Gaza, and the West Bank
in 1967, and it continues with

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the violent repression and
dehumanization of millions under

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Israeli rule.
We're so deeply honored to have

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our first guest on the show to
share her observations of the

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West Bank.
Simone.

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We'll be talking about the
deepening despair under Zionist

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rule since October 7th, the
prison system, settler violence,

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the myth of the two state
solution, and what Palestinians

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themselves see as a path
forward.

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Thank you so much for joining
us, Simone.

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Thank you so much.
I'm really happy to be here.

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So let's just start with some of
the fundamentals.

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With the backing of the US, the
Zionist state is trying to carry

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out its long standing goal,
outright annexation of the West

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Bank.
The complete colonization of the

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West Bank and the genocide in
Gaza are part of the Zionist

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program of so-called Greater
Israel.

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Their desire is to seize all the
land of historic Palestine with

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as few Palestinians as possible.
OK, so now a couple of specifics

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on the West Bank.
This is part of historic

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Palestine, which was militarily
seized by Israel in 67.

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The major cities like Ramallah,
Hebron, Nablis and Janine are

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where millions of Palestinians
live without basic political,

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civil or human rights under an
apartheid system of control that

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touches every part of daily
life.

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It's where you have Jewish only
settlements, concentrated and

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strategic locations to
militarily encircle the

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Palestinians, as well as in the
heart of Palestinian areas.

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The Israeli army regularly enter
cities and refugee camps with

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indiscriminate terror and deadly
force.

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The Palestinian Authority, which
has partial civil control, is

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widely viewed by Palestinians as
corrupt and complicit with the

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occupation.
Because it is.

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OK, Simone.
So tell us a little bit about

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your recent trip and where you
went in the West Bank.

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Yeah.
So I was in Palestine for about

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a month this past summer, but
middle of the summer, and I

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mainly spent time in the
northern West Bank.

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It's where I do the majority of
my work in the communities in

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Janine, Nablus and Tolketa.
These are kind of the three main

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cities in the north as well as
Tubas is another major city in

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the north, mainly Nablus, but I
did day trips to Bethlehem.

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Ramallah.
Ramallah is really the

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administrative capital.
A lot of organizations will have

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an office, main office in
Ramallah and the satellite

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offices in Nablus.
So sometimes you do have to go

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to Ramallah to do business and E
Jerusalem for short periods of

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time as well.
So you've been traveling to the

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West Bank regularly or or enough
so that you've been able to

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notice some of the changes over
the last two years, specifically

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since October 7th.
Can you talk a little bit about

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those changes or how different
it's been?

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Yeah.
So things are declining in the

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West Bank economically,
absolutely.

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When October 7th happened, about
250,000 Palestinians were West

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Bank Palestinians were fired
from their jobs in Occupied 48

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Palestine or Israel.
And many of these people were

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low income workers, but this
also included nurses, doctors,

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some professional class people.
Actually many of the refugee

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camps, particularly in Janine,
they're very close on the border

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if you look at a map to quote
Israel.

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And so these communities did
rely heavily on particularly low

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income work in Israel.
And so October 7th happened and

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you know, you had mass, mass
firings.

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And so these communities,
particularly the working class

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communities, which already have
very high levels of

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unemployment, are now two years
into many families having no one

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working other than maybe odd
jobs here and there, maybe some

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assistance from some
organizations.

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That's a crisis.
And two years in, people have

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gone through their savings.
For many families, things are

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getting quite desperate.
People are struggling to afford

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food.
People are struggling to afford

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university fees.
Because also particularly around

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university fees, there were
programs that wealthier

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Palestinians in the West Bank
would contribute to, for lower

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income families to cover
university tuition.

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But these families no longer
have that extra income to put

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towards those.
So a lot of those kind of really

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100% community based initiatives
have not really been able to

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continue post October 7th
because you just generally have

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such a decline in expendable
income.

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And so economically, definitely
things are very bad, very bad in

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the West Bank.
And how do you see that playing

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out in terms of just the general
outlook and despair and overall

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sense combined with what's
happening in Gaza?

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Something that I think is really
important is that people, people

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in the West Bank, they, they
are, they're very aware of Gaza.

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And as much as people talk about
how the situation is that in the

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West Bank, they always say, but
Gaza is much worse and we are

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not Gaza and, and they come
first.

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And so I think Gaza is also kind
of a a warning in a way of what

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what could happen as well.
And people are very aware of

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that.
I think it's not as spoken

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because that's a really scary
thing to say outright, but

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that's kind of a lot of the
underlying feeling.

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And this has played out in
reality in the refugee camps in

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the northern West Bank.
So in the refugee camps of

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Janine Tokatam and Nora Shams,
which is a refugee camp in the

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city of Tokatam.
And among these three camps,

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there are currently about 48,000
people who are internally

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displaced in the West Bank who
were violently removed from

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their homes.
And the refugee camps right now

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are closed military zones.
The homes are being burned,

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they're being demolished.
The army is creating these large

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kind of boulevards to ease their
movements within the camps

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because the camps, these
neighborhoods are very, they're

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very narrow streets.
So they are difficult for

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military operations.
And so you know you see the Gaza

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level destruction in the West
Bank and you see displacement,

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mass displacement already in the
West Bank in these refugee

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camps.
So, of course it is not to the

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scale of Gaza, but they are
implementing the same strategy

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currently in the West Bank.
One of the things I was curious

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about it, if you had any insight
on or gotten a chance to spoke

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to people about while you were
there, is like if you look at

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the first intifada, which was
obviously a product of decades

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of simmering discontent, the
spark at the end was a soldier

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killing a young man in Gaza and
that exploded throughout all of

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Palestine.
But Gaza, West Bank, and within

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Israel itself.
You look at the second intifada

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again, years and years of
mounting discontent.

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And then Ariel Sharon goes to
the Haram Sharif and it's seen

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as such an affront.
Today.

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It's almost a weekly occurrence.
But at the time, it was seen as

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such an affront that it sparks a
whole rebellion.

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And now you're seeing this
genocide happening in Gaza.

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But the West Bank, well, I
understand that there's been

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sparks here and there by small
militant groups.

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Seems relatively quiescent.
Is it fear?

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Is it despair?
Is it the sense that you spoke

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of the the threat of what Gaza
poses to the population of the

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West Bank?
Do people talk about it?

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Is is there a sense of my God,
almost half of our nation in or

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good chunk of our nation is
being annihilated and we can't

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do anything about it?
I think it's a combination of of

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all of those things depending on
who you're who you're talking

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to.
I think there is a sentiment

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among people who, you know, you
have people who are more

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politically aligned with the PA
on the Palestinian Authority who

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will say, look at what are the
actions of Hamas has gotten us.

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It's gotten us a genocide, it's
gotten us a terrible economy.

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Look at what's happened in the
refugee camps.

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This is what resistance gets us.
So you do hear this from, from

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people, you know, a lot of
people have lost a lot to, to

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Israel and, and by Israel.
And there is definitely a lot of

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anger and a lot of rage.
But unfortunately the the PA is

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a very powerful mechanism of
counterinsurgency and I think it

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cannot be understated kind of
the the Vichy nature of of the

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Pai personally think of it as a
Vichy government essentially

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because of the the role that
they play, particularly in area

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A or 100% Palestinian controlled
areas.

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The PA is just as much of A
concern as as the Israelis in

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many ways.
Because when when people are

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brought in for questioning in
Nablus, most of the time the

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first round is done by the PA,
you know, or they're held in PA

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prisons before going to a quote,
Israeli prison.

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Some context that I think is
very important about the

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northern West Bank.
And I don't know Ezra, if you

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are familiar with a group called
the Lion's Den in Nablus, but

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they were a popular supported
resistance group, I guess

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technically aligned somewhat
with Hamas, but independent

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brigade in many ways.
And in in 2022 and into 2023,

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their leaders were
systematically murdered and

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their families terrorized and
imprisoned by the Israelis and

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the Old City was put under under
siege.

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And this was really impactful in
terms of, I think, quelling any

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resistance over the last couple
years, particularly in the

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northern West Bank, because of
both how violent the response

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was, but also how effectively
the Israelis murdered every

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leader of the lion's den.
And so I think that it's two

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things.
It's both that there's a lot of

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oppression, there's a lot of
fear of repression and of

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particularly like economic, like
I, I need to support my family

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so I can't go to prison and I
don't want to get caught up in

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something.
But also the Lion's Den was

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very, very, very serious, just
destruction of a really pretty

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popular resistance in the
northern West Bank.

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Didn't the Lion's Den
subsequently also fall to some

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repression at the hands of the
PA as well?

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Yes, yes.
And we see this more recently

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with incidents in Janine, in
Janine camp and in Janine City

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where the PA had snipers who
were shooting Palestinians and

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killing them in Janine in the
the winter.

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On behalf of Israel.
Yep, on behalf of Israel.

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Exactly.
The Israelis didn't have to lift

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a finger.
So yes, a good amount of

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operations are done by the PA
against resistance actions.

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Etcetera.
And those who denounce Hamas or,

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or you could say the same thing
about the PFLP or others who

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denounce resistance, look what
resistance has gotten us.

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Do they offer something in place
of that?

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Do they have another leader or
someone in mind or?

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Yeah.
Are they happy with the rule of

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the PA?
I have not heard a good

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alternative from these.
Oh, do they offer any

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alternative, even if it's a bad
alternative?

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Not really, because the
alternative is continuing to go

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as is where you can.
Maybe if you're a small business

229
00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,600
owner or if you are a lawyer, a
doctor, you can continue having

230
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,160
your, you know, you have a nice
house and you have your little

231
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,440
piece that you're trying to
protect.

232
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,280
But beyond that, no, they don't
really offer another solution.

233
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,880
Yeah.
One of the things I'm hearing,

234
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,280
and please correct me if I'm
mistaken, is what the PA has as

235
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,760
a base now within Palestinian
society.

236
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,600
Is that shrinking professional
and middle class?

237
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:23,920
That feels like it would have
something to lose.

238
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,160
If.
Yes, if there's an uprising of

239
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,400
some kind.
Yeah.

240
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,080
I mean, it's not frankly too
dissimilar to the liberal

241
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,520
political establishment here,
right?

242
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:39,880
It is serving a very specific
class of professional and very

243
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,840
wealthy people in the United
States.

244
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,040
And so the dynamics are not so
dissimilar to what we experience

245
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,160
here, where it serves A
shrinking few.

246
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:56,680
And then the actions of poor
people who may be more involved

247
00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,640
in more, quote, extremist
parties are seen as kind of a a

248
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,200
shame or a moral failing.
I mean, I would say the one

249
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,760
difference is the liberal
establishment in the United

250
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,920
States at least plays a role in
running the United States,

251
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,040
whereas the PA doesn't run
Palestine.

252
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,880
It's simply is it?
Well, one I was.

253
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,080
Going to say it's the it's the
arm of Israel within Palestine.

254
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,120
Yes, but they employ a lot of.
People.

255
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,040
Oh, I'm sure, because Israel
lets them.

256
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,000
Because they and.
The US and the.

257
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,080
US, but I think it's a but but,
but it is important to recognize

258
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,600
that like the hospitals are
socialized, city functions, city

259
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,520
cleaning, all of this stuff,
that's all the PA.

260
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,200
So they employ a lot.
They do play a very important

261
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:47,480
role in everyday life because
they do employ a lot of people

262
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,000
and that does have an impact.
They have not been able to pay

263
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,560
people their full salaries even
before October 7th, which is a

264
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,480
very big issue that comes up a
lot.

265
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,640
I understand, like one of the
things that distinguished the

266
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,400
first intifada was a civil
disobedience campaign.

267
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,440
We're not going to pay our
taxes.

268
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,360
We're not going to cooperate
with the ruling government in

269
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,280
the West Bank.
We're not going to cooperate

270
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,640
with the administrations.
And these were all directly run

271
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,880
by Israel at the time.
What to me the PA now represents

272
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,640
is they've put a tattered
Palestinian flag as a facade on

273
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,640
top of the Israeli occupation.
And so if you imagine you're a

274
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,880
Palestinian who is basically
continuing to suffer these

275
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,400
conditions, you now have to take
on both Israel and the PA.

276
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,040
Yeah.
Like Ezra and I were talking

277
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,720
about this beforehand and trying
to come up with kind of how to

278
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,880
describe the Palestinian
Authority.

279
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,360
And I thought that your analogy
with the capo was, you know,

280
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,640
that these are the the traders
who are maintaining their

281
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,560
position within the ghetto and
they have something to gain in

282
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,960
maintaining that position.
Yeah.

283
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,280
I do want to be careful though,
because again, it is a difficult

284
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,680
situation.
There are not a lot of choices

285
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,560
particularly right now
economically.

286
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:15,119
And so I think that PA
leadership and people who may be

287
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,280
affiliated with the PA who are
workers, I do think it is

288
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,599
important to make that
distinction though generally.

289
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,079
To me, the capo is not the guy
who works at a hospital or the

290
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,560
teacher.
I'm talking about the people who

291
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,280
run the PA.
I'm talking about the people who

292
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,240
order the arrest and repression
of Palestinian activists on

293
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,160
behalf of the US and Israel.
There's an understanding to me

294
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,440
which is if they don't do that,
they're no longer going to have

295
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,280
their position of power because
the only reason the PA exists is

296
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,360
to basically run the West Bank
and it used to be a Gaza to run

297
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,400
the Palestinian territories for
Israel and the US as a

298
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,920
handmaiden to them.
Otherwise there would have been

299
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,000
no Oslo Accords or any of that
stuff.

300
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,000
It never was about a road to
self determination.

301
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,200
It was basically about giving a
fig leaf to creating these

302
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,600
little Bantu stands and giving
these little chieftains A fig

303
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:20,240
leaf to basically Lord it over
the Palestinian population and

304
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,040
dominate them.
And that domination can be

305
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,080
repression, but it could also be
economic.

306
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,880
And I think they kind of looked
at the South African model and

307
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,720
said, oh, there's some lessons
to be drawn here, chopping up

308
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,520
the body politic of the
Palestinian nation. 100%.

309
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,600
Yeah.
I want to go back Simone, to

310
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,560
some of the kind of the the
daily existence in the West

311
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,280
Bank.
And one of the things that we

312
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:48,560
talked about is that it's not
just when there's a major event

313
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,320
or massacre where you can
actually see the systemic

314
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,160
cruelty of the occupation and
how it plays out.

315
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,400
But some of the most horrible
things are just the daily

316
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,720
regime, the checkpoints, the
Jewish only roads, how difficult

317
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,840
it is to get from point A to
point B.

318
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:04,840
Can you talk a little bit about
that?

319
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,920
And if you had any specific
interactions or observations at

320
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,080
these at these checkpoints, if
you feel comfortable talking

321
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,600
about that Or with settlers even
in the West Bank.

322
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,000
Movement within the West Bank,
particularly in the last nine

323
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,320
months, has gotten dramatically
more difficult, more dangerous,

324
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,320
more time consuming and more
expensive.

325
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,480
So when I was in Palestine in
last November, 1/3 taxi ride

326
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,400
from Nablus to Romola, which
should take about 45 minutes,

327
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,440
cost 18 shekels.
And then when I came back in

328
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,200
this past summer, it had gone up
to 25 the shekels for the same

329
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,560
route.
That is both.

330
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,440
That's a variety of factors.
Some of it is fuel cost.

331
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,520
Some of it is also just that now
it usually takes a lot longer or

332
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,800
it has the higher chance of
taking sometimes up to four or

333
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,560
five hours depending on
checkpoint settlers, just

334
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,560
traffic, a lot of factors.
And so just just that cost rise.

335
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,240
My colleague and I, we we went
and I had a 50.

336
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,680
Shekel No, in the first time we
got on the shared taxi, I put

337
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,240
it, I put it forward to the
driver and we got nothing back.

338
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,360
And I was like, oh, and someone
said, oh, it's 25 now.

339
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:25,560
That was definitely a shock for
your average Palestinian right

340
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,920
now.
It's a very big a big jump.

341
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,480
So just on a price point, things
have gotten much more expensive

342
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,760
for for transportation on a
safety point, it has gotten much

343
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,320
more dangerous because in
addition to checkpoints, which

344
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,400
they have both permanent
checkpoints and then what people

345
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,240
call flying checkpoints, which
is where it can just kind of,

346
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,560
you know, you can have there's
like a little booth that

347
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,960
sometimes is empty, sometimes is
there.

348
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,280
And then you also can sometimes
just have soldiers who will make

349
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,120
a checkpoint on the road.
In addition to checkpoints,

350
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:07,640
there have been about, I think
as of yesterday, about 1000

351
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:14,280
gates that are these large
yellow metal swing open close

352
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,520
gates that have been placed
literally all over the West Bank

353
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,880
in front of most villages, in
front of the entrances to major

354
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,240
cities such as Bethlehem.
There was a gate that was placed

355
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,640
in the entrance to Bait Sahur
and into Bethlehem yesterday.

356
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,880
And I read someone had done some
math that now your average

357
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:40,360
Palestinian only has to go about
2.38 kilometers between these

358
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:45,160
gates where it's only about
every 2.38 kilometers.

359
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,520
There's a gate now in the West
Bank and so these can be closed,

360
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,120
opened at any time.
Many villages, the gates will

361
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:56,600
get closed at 8:00 PM and if
you're not back, you're you have

362
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,200
to figure out your evening.
So this is just like that level

363
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,680
of uncertainty when you leave
your village, when you leave

364
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,520
your city, you are opening
yourself up to death.

365
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,640
Very much so.
There are drive by shootings you

366
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,960
can be run into by a military
vehicle.

367
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,720
This happens to shared taxis
quite often as well, where a

368
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,120
military vehicle will kind of
brush by the side, RIP off a

369
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,640
door just for terror and then
time.

370
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,320
So we had a, another colleague
from the, a remote office was

371
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,760
coming to Nabilis.
It took her 45 minutes to come

372
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,720
because the roads are clear,
thank God.

373
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,480
And then on her way back, it
took four hours.

374
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,400
And there's no way to know.
You just.

375
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,040
There's no way to know.
Beyond the fact that when you're

376
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,120
traveling from point A to point
B, you could get interrogated,

377
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:46,400
you could get arrested, you
could get shot.

378
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:47,920
Yeah.
Yeah.

379
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:49,760
Exactly.
And so it really, a lot of

380
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,760
people have stopped traveling to
different places in the West

381
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,560
Bank.
I have friends who haven't left

382
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,160
Nablus in nine months because
it's just not worth.

383
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,840
They're just like, it's just not
worth it.

384
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,000
It's scary.
You know, you never know how

385
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,080
long it's going to take.
And if they don't have to go

386
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,320
somewhere like for a visa
appointment or something like

387
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,360
that, they're not going to be
leaving Nablus.

388
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,240
And this has become pretty
common.

389
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,680
And so the freedom of movement
has been severely eroded in the

390
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,680
West Bank in the last couple of
months.

391
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,760
Another piece is that my sister
actually went to university in

392
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:31,200
Nablus for a year 10 years ago.
She went to university, which is

393
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,560
a major university.
People come from all over the

394
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,200
West Bank and actually also in
Israel to come to.

395
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,080
So when my sister was 10 years
ago and she and her friends

396
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,760
would travel to Ramallah for the
day, they would drive back at

397
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,800
1:00 AM, no problems, no
questions.

398
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,440
It wasn't a brave thing to do.
They'd go to an event or a

399
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,720
concert in Ramallah and then
come back that that same

400
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,400
evening.
Now in the West Bank, if you are

401
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,360
traveling between cities, you
want to be either in your final

402
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:05,360
destination or you are staying
overnight somewhere once it's

403
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:09,720
sundown because the roads get
very scary at night.

404
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,960
So it's effectively like a
curfew, even if.

405
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,360
It is a it is not a curfew, but
in effect it it is a curfew.

406
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,400
This past summer I had an
incident where because of other

407
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,920
occupation related traffic, I
was very late leaving Ramallah

408
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,520
and I couldn't leave until the
last shared taxi.

409
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,400
That was about 7:50 PM, so it
was late.

410
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,680
My colleague and I were a bit
like, we were debating whether

411
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,480
to stay in Ramallah and leave
the next day or leave.

412
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,240
But we had some stuff early and
we were like, OK, we just have

413
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,760
to go back to Nablus.
It was sundown and it got dark

414
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:51,160
and it ended up taking about 3
1/2 hours to get back to Nablus.

415
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,920
And part of why it took so long
was because one of the main

416
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,960
highways, which is a shared
highway between Palestinians and

417
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,480
settlers, had been kind of shut
down by settlers.

418
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:11,280
We drove past a crowd of 250
settlers who were throwing quite

419
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:18,120
large rocks onto the roadway.
And there were about 10 army

420
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,080
vehicles that were essentially
escorting these settlers and

421
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,040
then stopping every Palestinian
car and shared taxi and talking

422
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,440
to us with guns pointed into the
van.

423
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,680
And that's a bad drive back, but
not the worst case scenario,

424
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,160
right?
No one, no one was hurt.

425
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,800
No one was killed.
We did get back to Nablus

426
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,960
because there was a question of
are we going to have to turn

427
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,120
around and go back to Ramallah?
Because that's the other thing

428
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,560
that can happen when you're
traveling is they can just say

429
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,800
this road is closed, you have to
go back.

430
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,840
And so you either have to go
through the villages and it is

431
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,880
very windy and adds a lot of
time.

432
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:56,560
And also you're in more rural
areas, which can be a little

433
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,160
frightening sometimes at the
dark.

434
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,040
And so, yeah, it's become
essentially a curve for you.

435
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,480
And what I think like in the US
we kind of refer to as like sun

436
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,880
downtown that's.
What I was thinking of as you

437
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,800
were describing it, the other
thing too is again as you're

438
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,080
describing it is but if you have
a medical emergency and you need

439
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:18,720
to get to a hospital in another
city that you don't live in, and

440
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,360
maybe you'll get there and maybe
you won't.

441
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,920
And this is a big issue in the
villages actually, because

442
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,400
particularly women giving birth,
the hospital or birthing center

443
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,400
won't be in their village.
You'll have to go to Tubas or

444
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,640
Janine or Nablus.
And you know, if the gates

445
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,200
closed, the gates closed, or if
there's settlers on the road or

446
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:43,960
there have been many deaths from
traffic, traffic in general,

447
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,560
from checkpoints, But then also
just the Israelis not letting

448
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,560
people pass through.
It's someone giving birth,

449
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,280
someone having a heart attack.
These are not resistance or

450
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,560
anything related injuries.
These are just you.

451
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,760
You know, you have people, you
have old people, you have young

452
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,320
people, someone falls on a
skateboard and breaks their arm.

453
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,800
These are just what you have in
a, in a society.

454
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,640
I think something that we should
also think about generally is we

455
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,520
have the death toll of the
occupation.

456
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,840
But like everyone who dies of a
heart attack because they

457
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,680
couldn't get to the hospital
because of a checkpoint, that's

458
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,560
a death from the occupation.
The murder woman who dies giving

459
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,720
birth.
Right.

460
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,960
That that is a death from the
occupation.

461
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,240
And of course, in the situation
of Gaza, that is tenfold because

462
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,560
there are people with diabetes,
there are people with kidney

463
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,760
issues who are dying every day.
And so I think when we talk

464
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,440
about death tolls, we do need to
add in quite a few from these

465
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,960
daily medical things that are
just not able to be taken care

466
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,560
of in a timely manner on purpose
by the occupation because the

467
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,840
goal is extermination.
I want to talk a little bit

468
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,000
about the settlers because you
mentioned having this

469
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,560
confrontation with them and the
increasing settlement growth and

470
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,920
settler violence, these
fascistic settlers.

471
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,320
And I think that's not an
overstatement at all.

472
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,400
There's more than 750,000,
right?

473
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,920
Is that an accurate number?
In both the West Bank and E

474
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,160
Jerusalem, they're continuing to
expand and they're backed by the

475
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,200
Israeli military.
And these are extreme religious

476
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,240
nationalists settling the West
Bank.

477
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,000
They call it Judea and Samaria.
And they find that it's they

478
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,920
they say that it's their
religious duty and necessity to

479
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,240
drive out the Palestinians.
And in the history here, we've

480
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,520
seen that Israeli governments
since the beginning have

481
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,840
supported and funded these
settlements through

482
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,720
infrastructure and subsidies and
military protection.

483
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,680
So I just want to talk a little
bit about this.

484
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,440
I've just watched a recent BBC
documentary by Louis Theroux

485
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,040
called The Settlers and there's
a lot of documentaries out there

486
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,160
about the West Bank and seeing
some of this visually that you

487
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,120
talked about Simone, not just no
other land that obviously a lot

488
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,840
of people are talking about
that, but these documentaries

489
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,120
that show like the complete
terror and the lack of rights

490
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,400
and apartheid conditions.
In the Louis Ro BBC documentary

491
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,680
The Settlers, it showed Daniella
Weiss, who's considered the

492
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,880
godmother of the settlement.
She's this raving lunatic

493
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,240
sociopath.
And in the documentary she goes

494
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,320
on these numerous ethno
nationalist rants about the plan

495
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,000
to make this a Jewish only state
with more Israeli outpost.

496
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,200
The thing that was really
notable is that you also saw

497
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,560
them really wanting to settle
Gaza.

498
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,680
And in one scene she goes with
these rabbis to the border of

499
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,400
Gaza and there's smoke billowing
from the extermination and the

500
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,480
bombing, and they're doing this
prayer and they talk about

501
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,840
cleansing the land of camel
riders.

502
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,720
So really gives you a real
sense.

503
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,440
There's another part of the
documentary where there's a

504
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,600
continually armed man from Texas
who says, I don't know what

505
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,520
you're talking about.
Palestinians, they don't exist.

506
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,360
There's no such thing as
Palestinians.

507
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,520
So yeah, tell me a little bit
about what kind of changes

508
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,040
you've seen.
Settlers have been around since

509
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,480
the beginning, since 6768.
What have you seen in terms of

510
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,560
their proliferation and the role
they're playing?

511
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,800
Really what we're seeing is just
increased settlements generally

512
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:21,040
and more settlers on the roads,
the settlers also becoming more

513
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,720
violent, especially with Ben
Gavir and his kind of

514
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,800
encouragement, both in terms of
giving weapons to settlers, but

515
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,120
also in terms of his rhetoric
and how he's been elevated in

516
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,240
the government.
And so I think particularly

517
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:44,160
we've seen the very extreme and
alarming examples in Khalil,

518
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,440
also known as Hebron or Hebron.
And we saw the mosque.

519
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,320
It's both a Jewish and a Muslim
site.

520
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,560
The Cave of the Patriarchs.
Yes, The Cave of the Patriarchs

521
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,600
are the Abraham Mosque.
And so this is a historic

522
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,320
Palestinian city.
The majority of the residents

523
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,880
that are there are Palestinian.
Recently, the Israeli government

524
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,040
decided that the mosque is no
longer under the mosque control

525
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,800
and leadership and they have
completely decided to take over

526
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,680
the site, which is a huge
provocation.

527
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,480
And Salil is somewhere where you
see settlers rushing into a home

528
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,040
and taking it over.
This is a city where you see

529
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:35,760
theft is done not in the kind of
usual legalistic area, ABC kind

530
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,800
of colonial law way.
It's done in just the most kind

531
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,440
of extrajudicial.
You get 20 guys who just

532
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,880
literally run into your house
and stay and force you out with

533
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,000
guns.
And so I think Khalil or Hebron

534
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,480
is somewhere that you've seen
the most kind of extreme

535
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,560
examples of the urban settlement
and then also obviously in East

536
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,320
Jerusalem where you have similar
types of settler actions for

537
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,400
land theft.
Just in terms of a background,

538
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,120
correct me if I get the numbers
wrong, but I believe Khalil

539
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:15,040
Hebron is about 280,000 or
250,000 Palestinians and about

540
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,120
1000 settlers.
And for those 1000 settlers,

541
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,440
they control about half the city
and basically the whole of the

542
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,400
center of the city has been
decimated of all the old

543
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,080
businesses and just become a
ghost town.

544
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,560
It's also very naked there that
there are roads that are only to

545
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,880
be allowed by Jews and roads
that the Palestinians can travel

546
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,960
on.
It's sort of Zionism taken to

547
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,280
its rawest form before you get
to the genocide part.

548
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,520
There's another documentary
about that called H2, the

549
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,280
Occupation Lab, where it's
specifically about the history

550
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,240
of Hebron and how it's kind of
the symbol of what is to come in

551
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,120
the West Bank.
It's kind of a testing ground.

552
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,040
What they do in Hebron, they try
to execute and carry out in the

553
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,400
rest of the West Bank.
The earliest settlers came in in

554
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,640
68, and the mosque that you're
referring to is where they had

555
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,840
the massacre. 94 Baruch
Goldstein, an American settler,

556
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,520
I believe it was 29
Palestinians, massacred, dozens

557
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,720
and dozens wounded as he walked
into the mosque during prayer

558
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,120
and opened fire with his semi
automatic gun, after which he

559
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,040
was killed by the surviving
parishioners and is now a

560
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,120
lionized hero of the settler
movement.

561
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,440
Yeah, and the the effect of that
massacre afterwards was a

562
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,320
massive crackdown on the
Palestinian residents of that

563
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,120
town, not on the settlement
movement.

564
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,160
Yeah, as you mentioned he was an
American settler who lived and

565
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:51,240
worked in a settlement nearby
Folio where he was a physician,

566
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:59,080
where he was famous for refusing
to do any medical work or help

567
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,840
any non Jews.
As a physician.

568
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,200
His extremism was in all aspects
of his life as well.

569
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,120
And I think there are many
Baruch Goldsteins in the West

570
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,480
Bank and in Israel, frankly,
probably more because there's

571
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,080
more people in Israel.
So.

572
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,880
They're running the government.
Yeah, so Bruce Budstein and the

573
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,280
Kahanas in general have become
mainstream.

574
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:26,440
Something that has become very
common to see on roads in the

575
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,520
West Bank are flags that portray
the Third Temple.

576
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,400
And I think a couple days ago,
settlers also added some fake

577
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,600
Rd. signs underneath the signs
that pointed to Jerusalem that

578
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,840
said essentially the Hebrew term
for the Third Temple and had the

579
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,239
little symbol.
Can you describe what the third

580
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,600
temple is?
So the Third Temple is what most

581
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,239
of these religious Zionist
supporters and settlers, and I

582
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,080
think also evangelical
Christians.

583
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,080
Yes, absolutely.
I'm less of an expert on the

584
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:06,200
evangelicals, but what they
dream of creating on top of what

585
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,000
is now the Temple Mount in
Jerusalem, where the Dome of the

586
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,800
Rock is and where the AL Aqsa
Mosque is as well.

587
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,960
And so they want to rebuild from
the ruins of what they claim,

588
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,520
which is a disputed
archaeological fact, the ruins

589
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,600
of the quote Second Temple,
which is what they say Alexa and

590
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,320
the Dome of the Rock are built
on top of.

591
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:36,680
So that is a very extreme
provocation in terms of the

592
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,440
symbolism of those flags.
And I will say personally, it

593
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,120
was extremely distressing to see
them on the roads.

594
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,560
It seems like part of the
increasing amount of settlements

595
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:54,200
is also that the Zionist regime
has a green light to basically

596
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:55,760
take over.
And that's what they've been

597
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,840
aiming for from the beginning,
is to create the quote UN quote

598
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,720
facts on the ground.
And part of their goal of taking

599
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:07,720
over the West Bank, which was a
Zionist aim even before 48 and

600
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:11,080
part of the project.
What do you think about the

601
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,440
possibility of these settlements
going into Gaza and the

602
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,640
likelihood that's going to take
place?

603
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,840
I mean, unfortunately, I think
it's fairly likely whether in a

604
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,600
official way or in an unofficial
capacity, because you have these

605
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:35,240
quote extremist illegal settlers
who even a lot of Zionist but

606
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:38,680
more mainstream Israelis will
say, well, they're the problem.

607
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,040
They're the problem because they
are going into areas that are

608
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:48,200
technically not allowed, but
they still are not removed by

609
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,840
the Israeli government.
They are implicitly allowed.

610
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,080
So unfortunately, I think that
there will be some settlement

611
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,120
whether officially sanctioned or
not, but implicitly sanctioned

612
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,400
and that this is the spoken and
defined goals of the state.

613
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,520
Yeah, they've said they want to
do it.

614
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,320
Whether they can or not, it's a
different question.

615
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,880
And the American government has
said they want them to do it.

616
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,840
I mean, the American government
wants to turn it into Riviera,

617
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,440
as they say.
Right.

618
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,760
I would maybe.
I think the environmental and

619
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,560
health situation of making
settlements in the north of Gaza

620
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,600
right now would be definitely a
big concern.

621
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,200
But these settlers don't have a
lot of concern for their

622
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,360
personal.
But yeah, there's.

623
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,840
Sacrifices to be made to seize
the.

624
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,400
Land, Exactly.
Yeah, There are groups of

625
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,400
settlers right now who have set
up in the in the north, I

626
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,800
believe near what is now the
Israeli city of Ashkelon.

627
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,160
You know, they are ready with
supplies to literally flood into

628
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,320
northern Gaza and set up camps,
which is what they do in the

629
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:48,920
West Bank.
They show up with trailers.

630
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,760
They show up with, I mean, some
of the conditions, frankly, that

631
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,400
some of these settlers are
living in the West Bank are, are

632
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,800
really the contrast between like
how some of the settlers are

633
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,200
living and then the village and
the cities around them.

634
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,680
If they're living in like
trailers with no indoor plumbing

635
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,800
and then around like very normal
towns, the contrast is always a

636
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,960
bit odd when you see the
settlements.

637
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,800
But they are living a frontier
fantasy.

638
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,640
They are living in their mind in
these Wilds where for

639
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,120
Palestinians novelist is one of
the oldest cities in the world.

640
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,080
You know, Jericho, which is on
by the Dead Sea is home to the

641
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,520
longest inhabited location in
the world.

642
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,800
So, you know, it's also just
completely a historical, the way

643
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,480
that these settlers view the
land in and of itself, in terms

644
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,160
of even how it has been lived
on.

645
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,040
They also view it as they're
willing to make, quote, UN

646
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,320
quote, these self-imposed
sacrifices so they can seize the

647
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,320
land.
And if they grow any bigger than

648
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,320
they'll get more tax breaks and
more everything from the Israeli

649
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,200
government.
Eventually then you get the big

650
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,800
settlements that suck up all the
water and where you have

651
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,440
basically homes that are like
villas.

652
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,360
Oh yeah, some of the
settlements, the big ones, I

653
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,480
mean, they're like small cities.
I've never been in any of them,

654
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,120
but I see them and I mean, it's
incredible the luxury some of

655
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,480
these people are living in, in
these settlements.

656
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,680
A kind of interesting contrast
of the settlement, though, is

657
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,520
that one of these very big
settlements that you pass by on

658
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,440
the way to Ramallah, it's a big
established one, but they pump

659
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,880
their sewage directly into the
stream that's below the

660
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,920
settlement by the road.
I think this is to make that

661
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,640
area completely inhospitable,
generally to Palestinians.

662
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,120
But it's also just they have no
care for the land.

663
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,240
It also smells terrible.
So you're driving by and you're

664
00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:42,960
like, oh God, it's this
olfactory landmark where you can

665
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,360
smell the shit in the stream
that is just being piped down by

666
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,960
the settlement.
It's so illustrative of how they

667
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,840
have no respect or relation to
the land.

668
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,600
It is purely for exploitation.
I agree.

669
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,600
I also think they will never
miss an opportunity to make the

670
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,880
life of the Palestinians as
miserable as possible in the

671
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,400
hopes that the Palestinians will
just go away.

672
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,480
Even if it affects them because
they drive on these roads too.

673
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,080
This is a shared road and it's
like you want to drive by the

674
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:15,960
shit stream.
I don't I, I don't it's.

675
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,120
For the greater good to them,
it's for the greater good.

676
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,320
Right.
Some of these settlers have

677
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,360
Instagram accounts and you'll
see them complaining about

678
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,160
checkpoint traffic because they
want to go have a date night in

679
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,000
Jerusalem.
And it's like, this is all you.

680
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,880
This checkpoint is for you.
You know, it's all part of this

681
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:41,040
slow suffocation and just making
it so untenable to to live that

682
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,560
people leave.
When you say make it the slow

683
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,080
suffocation to make people want
to leave, are they, are you

684
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,640
seeing that in terms of the
people that you've worked with

685
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,920
and interacted with and where
are they going?

686
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,720
A lot of people are leaving.
Even I think something like this

687
00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:01,000
past summer, people who I never
thought would want to leave.

688
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,840
We're talking to me about, oh,
I'm trying to find an

689
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,520
internship, I'm trying to find a
job that maybe I can go to

690
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,640
Europe or something like that.
Another thing that I heard a

691
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,120
couple times from people was
that the violence, they're used

692
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,240
to the violence.
That's not why they want to

693
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:17,120
leave.
They want to leave because they

694
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,360
can't have a dignified life
economically and they can't

695
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,840
provide for their family, and
that's not tenable.

696
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,160
So people are wanting to leave.
A lot of young men are leaving

697
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,560
particularly.
And you know, you have people

698
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,640
going to Jordan, to the United
States, to Europe, to the Gulf.

699
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,760
Are they able to come to the
United States or isn't there a

700
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,280
ban on Palestinian visas?
Yeah.

701
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,800
So there was that policy change.
I don't know exactly how that

702
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,800
policy change has affected
people, frankly, because I don't

703
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,480
know anyone who's traveled since
then.

704
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,960
But the the reality is there are
a lot of Palestinians in the

705
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,440
United States.
So a lot of people have extended

706
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,400
family in the United States.
It also plays out differently if

707
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:57,880
you can get a Jordanian
passport.

708
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,760
Right.
So that's, that's the other

709
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,520
thing is a lot of Palestinians
do have either a Jordanian

710
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,480
passport or a rate to a
Jordanian passport, especially

711
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,480
Jerusalem Palestinians, because
Jerusalem was under Jordanian

712
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,400
control for many years.
There are a lot of different

713
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,640
people are in a lot of different
documentation situations in

714
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,560
Palestine.
Some people have Israeli

715
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,440
citizenship and other people are
Palestinian Authority ID

716
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,680
holders.
It's another way in which Israel

717
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,560
slices and divides the
Palestinian people through

718
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,360
different ID citizenships,
different rights, different

719
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,920
economic opportunities,
different travel opportunities.

720
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,000
It's a way for them to
systematically divide and create

721
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,080
tensions between people.
I'm glad you mentioned that

722
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,720
because this was one of the
things I wanted to ask you

723
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:46,640
about.
I'm going to preface this by

724
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,840
referring to a book that came
out in 1988 that I read in 2005.

725
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,960
It's called My Enemy Myself.
I don't know if you've ever

726
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,840
heard of it.
It's by an Israeli author who

727
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,960
was inspired by the book Black
Like Me, where a white

728
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,600
journalist dressed as though he
were a black man to see the

729
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,520
experience of being a black man
in the United States in the

730
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,680
1950s.
So this was a an Israeli

731
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,520
journalist of Moroccan
background, spoke perfect

732
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:16,800
Palestinian Arabic and wanted to
see for himself experience the

733
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,800
racism and discrimination and
oppression that Palestinians

734
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,840
faced.
When I read it in 2005, this

735
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,320
came out in 88, came out right
as the first intifada was

736
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,280
breaking up.
He's laying out the horrors that

737
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,840
Palestinians face.
That's the point of his book.

738
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:34,360
I'm reading in 2005 and I'm
thinking, Oh my God, things have

739
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,040
gotten so much worse than they
were in 88.

740
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,680
The level of freedom of movement
that he had.

741
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,400
So he was pretending to be from
Janine and every day he would

742
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,360
cross from Janine into Israel
where he would do a day labor

743
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,200
job and he would go visit people
in Gaza and he would cross back

744
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,520
into Israel and he would cross
back into Jedin and into E

745
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,760
Jerusalem and he was basically
moving around.

746
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,640
This is an 87.
When he was doing this before

747
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,120
this massive amount of
checkpoints went up.

748
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,000
One thing you had to do was be
outside of Israel by the end of

749
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,880
the night.
And often times he didn't obey

750
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,160
that rule.
He made a rule for himself that

751
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,560
if he were asked for his ID by
border police or something like

752
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,200
that, he would show the
policeman his Israeli ID.

753
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,560
He would not pretend to the
Israeli official that he was a

754
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,920
Palestinian.
And the whole year where he did

755
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,120
this experiment, he was asked
for an ID twice.

756
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,080
Only twice.
Which is crazy now.

757
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,120
What you're describing is
literally impossible now.

758
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,240
And it was impossible in 2005
when I read the book.

759
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,480
Yeah.
So the reason I'm mentioning all

760
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,640
this is one of the things that I
think Israel has succeeded in

761
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,440
doing, especially in the wake of
the Oslo Accords, but it began

762
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,840
before that, is dividing up the
national body politic of the

763
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,000
Palestinian people.
You have the people in Gaza.

764
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,360
You have the people within
Israel itself, you have the

765
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,120
people in East Jerusalem who
have certain privileges but not

766
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,680
others.
You have the people in the West

767
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,280
Bank areas, AB and C of the West
Bank.

768
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,680
And you yourself mentioned if
you are in Nablus for the last

769
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,120
nine months, you don't even
travel outside of Nablus because

770
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:20,480
can you even get to your
destination?

771
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,040
So you have the West Bank itself
chopped up into little bits and

772
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,880
pieces.
You have Palestinians all over

773
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,640
the Middle East, with the
partial exception of Jordan,

774
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,200
still not integrated into the
various countries that they're

775
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,400
in, like Lebanon and Syria.
You have a Palestinian diaspora

776
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,800
in the West, in Europe, the
United States, and Latin

777
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,360
America.
Let's not forget the massive

778
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,240
Palestinian diaspora and Chile
and other countries.

779
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,040
This is a nation that's been
divvied up.

780
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,320
And each of those groups of
people have, in many ways, very

781
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,000
little interaction with one
another.

782
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,400
They have some.
I'm not saying none, but it's

783
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,680
limited and it's kind of at the
privilege or mercy of the

784
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,680
Israelis or the Americans call
out who's in charge here and

785
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:05,560
enjoy different levels of life,
different levels of privileges,

786
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,240
like the ones in Israel have
certain privileges of the ones

787
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:11,280
in the West Bank I don't have.
And then obviously there's the

788
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,800
ones in Gaza who have been
living in a concentration camp

789
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,640
for decades.
And I'm just wondering if you

790
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:21,520
saw some sense of the effect of
that dismemberment of the

791
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,960
Palestinians.
And I think just before you

792
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,880
answered, I just want to say I
think it is credit to the

793
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,320
national aspirations of the
Palestinians that despite these

794
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,280
things, that sense of national
identity is still very powerful

795
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,960
and strong.
But I can't believe it's had no

796
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,400
impact.
It must have impact on that

797
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:39,880
society.
Yeah.

798
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,520
I mean, to your last point,
there is still an understanding

799
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,760
of a Palestinian as a
Palestinian, no matter whether

800
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,920
they're Israeli citizenship
Holder, Jerusalem ID Holder or a

801
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,480
West Bank Palestinian Authority
ID holder.

802
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,640
I think I'm not the best person
to ask about this because I

803
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,520
frankly have mainly have
interacted and spent time in

804
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,680
East Jerusalem and then in the
West Bank.

805
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:09,160
So in terms of Israeli citizen
Palestinians, I don't have too

806
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:15,720
much experience in that way, but
there is a, they have the

807
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,040
freedom of movement to come in
and out of the West Bank.

808
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,920
And there are many Israeli
citizenship holding Palestinians

809
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,760
who come to, for instance,
Annabolis all the time.

810
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,200
They come to restaurants, they
come out to eat.

811
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,560
Sometimes they come and get
medical care because you can

812
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,240
imagine the medical racism that
many Palestinians experience in

813
00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:38,800
Israel, particularly around
fertility.

814
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,840
And so you do have a lot more
back and forth.

815
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,520
And I think a lot of people
would think, but there is

816
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,680
definitely people go, oh,
they're from 48.

817
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,320
Oh, those people over there,
they're from 48.

818
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:56,400
They have they're, you know,
seem to have more money and a

819
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,320
bit more privilege.
But you'll be in a restaurant,

820
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,680
Annabolis, and they'll be
someone leaving a Hebrew

821
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,640
WhatsApp voice note.
And everyone's kind of like a

822
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,080
little around the little.
There are looks, There are looks

823
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,920
that kind of go around.
And everyone's like, OK,

824
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,640
interesting.
But at the end of the day,

825
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:17,920
they're they're still
Palestinian.

826
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,880
And, and everyone kind of
understands that this is no

827
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,880
one's choice, you know?
But they're definitely dynamic

828
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,400
in in between those.
Yeah.

829
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,080
The reason I mentioned that book
is because the travel between

830
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,200
the West Bank and Gaza that the
guy was doing as a Palestinian,

831
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,760
whereas if you can imagine
someone, let's say, born in 2000

832
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,880
in Tokaram, would have probably
never set eyes on somebody born

833
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,760
in 2000 in Gaza.
Well, unless they were coming

834
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,960
for medical treatment on a
permit.

835
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,760
Yeah, but as a norm, as a norm.
Yes, in the street as a oh, I'm

836
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,200
coming to see my cousin.
No.

837
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,160
And you have whole families that
have been divided up like this

838
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:57,480
for decades.
Yes.

839
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,120
And it's it's devastating
because when you think about

840
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,320
this is a single nation that's
just been carved up like that.

841
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,560
I mean, Nablus, if you're up on
the mountains.

842
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,240
Nablus is between two mountains.
It's famous for its two

843
00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:11,160
mountains.
If you're up on one of those

844
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,320
mountains, you can you can see
the sea.

845
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,640
But never go there.
But never go there.

846
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:21,200
If you're under a certain age,
it's even been a possibility to

847
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,000
go to the sea.
But if you talk to older people,

848
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,640
they'll say, when I was a boy,
my buddies and I, we'd drive at

849
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,080
night to the to the ocean, have
a swim and come back to Nablus.

850
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,800
So I think it's also important
to remember that the current

851
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:40,160
situation is very recent and
that it is much more unnatural

852
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,640
than it is made to seem in a lot
of media and a lot of the way in

853
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,800
which people talk about it.
Oh, it's incredibly unnatural.

854
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,920
I think it really started with
Oslo.

855
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,720
Oslo was that utter disaster and
which is why I will never

856
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,280
forgive the Palestinian
Authority and the PLO for what

857
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,000
they did.
That's why to me, they are the

858
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,920
capos, or as you put at the
Vichy regime, they handed the

859
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,680
Palestinians over to Israel so
that they can get to wave a flag

860
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,520
and control them on behalf of
Israel in the US.

861
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,240
It's incredibly unnatural, but
it's frightening in its impact.

862
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,120
To your point about also I think
we talked about the kind of ABC

863
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:22,800
area distinction, right?
This is a product of Oslo and

864
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:29,320
its purpose was to quote ease
the PA into full governance.

865
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,320
This has not obviously
functioned this way.

866
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:38,120
They have become essentially
official colonial distinctions

867
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:44,400
that the Israelis use to further
their annexation and is a

868
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:49,760
permanent state of law now that
is used to justify illegal

869
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,800
settlement.
And that's why also I think when

870
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,760
we talk about Area ABC, we do
need to be a bit critical of it

871
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,240
generally because it is a
colonial framework.

872
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,000
This is all Palestinian, and
these areas have no effect on

873
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,920
how Israelis operate within
these areas.

874
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,800
And also in area A, even though
it's 100% of Palestinian

875
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,600
control, there are settlers,
there are army incursions all

876
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,920
the time.
Palestinians are just as much

877
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:17,120
danger in those areas as they
are in the other ones, and vice

878
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,400
versa for the Israelis.
They operate the same way

879
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,720
whether they're in area ABC,
right?

880
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,520
Maybe they file different
paperwork.

881
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,720
I'm not exactly sure how it
works on their end, but I think

882
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,840
sometimes when I talk with
people in the US about the West

883
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,920
Bank, sometimes they get very
caught up on which area is that.

884
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,360
And I always find it interesting
because it's really giving a lot

885
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:46,400
of credence to this completely
colonial framework that I think

886
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,920
we need to be very much more of
a rejection of because in the

887
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,080
reality of it, it has no impact
on how the Israelis operate.

888
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,240
If I can, just for listeners,
the dividing up of the areas AB

889
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:02,160
and C Area A, which is like what
is a 20% of the West Bank

890
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,080
thereabouts, but where most
Palestinians live, is supposedly

891
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,280
under full PA or Palestinian
Authority governance.

892
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,120
But as Simone pointed out, the
Israelis can go in there

893
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,880
whenever they want.
Area B is supposedly shared

894
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,680
governance between the PA and
Israel, which really means

895
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,760
Israel runs it.
Area C is officially Israel runs

896
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,480
it however they want to.
It is 62% of the West Bank.

897
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,200
So it's the biggest land.
It has the fewest number of

898
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,560
Palestinians.
And if you want to talk about

899
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,520
expulsions, since Oslo there has
been a substantial number of

900
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,720
expulsions of Palestinians out
of Area C And this is the only

901
00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:39,000
thing that's important about
this stuff, to be perfectly

902
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,400
honest, Israel has use this
division to expel Palestinians

903
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,160
out of Area C into mainly Area
A, so they can basically get the

904
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,840
62% of the land without the
people.

905
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,560
And one last thing, this whole
thing that this was supposed to

906
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,920
ease the Palestinian Authority
into governance, just the very

907
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:01,040
racist and colonial framework of
that.

908
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,320
Like, these are the savages who
don't know how to rule, and

909
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:05,920
we're going to teach them how to
rule.

910
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:11,040
At the time, people like Edward
Saeed rightly understood this as

911
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,920
a betrayal.
And if anything, he understated

912
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,720
how much of A betrayal it was.
So we've been talking about

913
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,440
Oslo, and I wanted to use that
to talk about the two state

914
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:25,120
solution, which is long been
dead in practice and I think

915
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,600
completely exposed as a farce.
Last night I was reading Ilan

916
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,120
Papaya, Israeli historian, and
he has this line about the two

917
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,360
state solution being like a
corpse taken out of the morgue

918
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,400
every now and then, dressed up
nicely and presented as a living

919
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,920
thing.
This is always been an Israeli

920
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,640
invention, a kind of a charade,
and there was never any chance

921
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,520
that it would be more than a ban
to stand.

922
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,120
But it's also impossible, for so
many reasons, that there would

923
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,160
ever be a Palestinian state
under the current situation.

924
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,360
First of all, Israel's laws
define the country As for Jews

925
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,400
only.
It would not be contiguous even

926
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,040
if it were conditionally
autonomous.

927
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,760
It would be 20% of the historic
Palestinian homeland.

928
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,680
So very far from the idea of
National Liberation.

929
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,200
You also have, of course, the
settler question.

930
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,720
That's the facts on the ground.
So the Israeli settlers are

931
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,800
never going to live under
Palestinian rule, and Israel

932
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,520
will not expel them.
So you're talking about the kind

933
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,440
of Swiss cheese scenario that
looks like the West Bank right

934
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,240
now.
There's also the right of

935
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:30,600
return, which is a key component
of National Liberation for the

936
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,600
Palestinians.
There are millions of

937
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,160
Palestinian refugees.
This would give up their

938
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,240
opportunity to even come back
under this supposed 2 state

939
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:41,000
solution.
There would be no proper

940
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,560
sovereignty, no means of
Palestine protecting itself or

941
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,520
sustaining itself independently
of Israel.

942
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:47,880
Those are just some of the
components if you were to take

943
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,440
it at face value.
But I think it has been so fully

944
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,480
exposed.
So I'm curious, Simone, if this

945
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,680
is seen as a farce or anything
more than that, what does it

946
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,680
look like on the ground?
Yeah, I don't think I've ever

947
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,280
actually talked to anyone who's
a Pro 2 state solution.

948
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,200
I'm trying to think.
I don't think I have honestly.

949
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,800
Because what I hear the most is
a full Palestine from top to

950
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,760
bottom, river to the sea and
with right of return.

951
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,520
And frankly, the vast majority
of people that I've talked to,

952
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,560
they say, and the Jews are
welcome to stay.

953
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,840
They just have to put down their
weapons, put down their borders,

954
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,160
get rid of the checkpoints and
let people return.

955
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,720
And if they're willing to live
as Palestinians in a Palestinian

956
00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:40,440
society.
And, and that's really like, it

957
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,000
sounds kind of simple.
I've heard this from people who

958
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,840
I've been surprised based on
their life experience, in terms

959
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,560
of the really severe abuse
they've had by the hands of the

960
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,720
Israelis.
And would it learn more towards

961
00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:57,640
than one state with equal rights
kind of scenario?

962
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,120
Honestly, the situation right
now and the last two years has

963
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,040
been so bad that we haven't.
We don't get that far in the

964
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:06,400
conversation.
It's just like, what?

965
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,320
What?
How do we get to tomorrow?

966
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,040
Yeah.
We're not talking about it.

967
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,640
And also, frankly, political
discussion right now.

968
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:17,240
It happens in people's homes if
they really trust you because

969
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:20,600
the level of repression is so
high that people will post

970
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,520
something that's slightly
critical of the PA on Facebook

971
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:24,840
and they'll get a knock on their
door.

972
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,600
Yeah.
I think sometimes people on the

973
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:28,720
left may be surprised that
everyone in Palestine isn't

974
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:30,840
having deep political
discussions all the time.

975
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,000
People talk about the situation,
but in a very like day-to-day

976
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,080
way.
But in terms of having

977
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,520
conversations about like, would
we have equal rights?

978
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,240
What would it look like?
What about Haifa?

979
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,360
These are not is is not
something that I think is.

980
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,720
Yeah, I don't know.
That feels like it speaks a lot

981
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,320
to some of the points we were
talking about before the

982
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,640
suffocation and the
dismemberment too, because the

983
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,800
idea that there would be any
sort of future.

984
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,680
How do you discuss the future?
There were these discussions in

985
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,680
the past and there were
resistance movements, and I

986
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,920
think if you were doing this
trip in 2000, there would still

987
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,840
be these kinds of discussions.
I'm sure, yeah.

988
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,640
And that's 100% true.
And I think my point, yeah, is

989
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,480
the Israeli oppression is so
intense that it is hard for

990
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,600
people, especially working class
people and who've been displaced

991
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,120
from refugee camps, to have
these kinds of political

992
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,840
discussions.
That's the same for working

993
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:26,960
class people in this country
where people don't have a lot of

994
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,520
time to think about politics and
what a deal political system

995
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,040
they would want either.
And that's part of why the

996
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,240
system wants to keep people
economically really

997
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,720
disadvantaged.
It it takes up a lot of time to

998
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,520
make sure you have food on the
table and that becomes your main

999
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,760
priority.
One of the things you said that

1000
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,880
I found interesting about those
discussions is this point about

1001
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:54,920
in this ideal or idealize one
state, Israeli Jews are welcome

1002
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,840
to stay provided they're willing
to live as equals as opposed to

1003
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,560
it as a privileged population.
And one of the things that's

1004
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,000
interesting about that is you
look at a lot of pseudo leftist

1005
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,680
in the West and they'll talk
about Israeli Jews as a foreign

1006
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:13,320
implant and it can just go back
to Europe or wherever it came

1007
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,320
from.
And I understand it is a settler

1008
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,400
colonial society, but much like
the US, within a generation or

1009
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,120
two, you've settled and there's
a certain recognition what

1010
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,480
you're describing from what the
Palestinians are saying of we're

1011
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,840
kind of stuck with these people.
Also, mass displacement.

1012
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,800
No one wants to do mass
displacement to anyone.

1013
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:37,200
And that's what that would mean,
you know what I mean?

1014
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,520
And so that's the other thing.
I imagine if something like this

1015
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,280
were to happen, which it's hard
to imagine at the moment, I

1016
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,280
imagine there will be a certain
layer of Israeli Jews that will

1017
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,640
just leave a. 100% it'll be like
Algeria.

1018
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:50,480
But in the case of Algeria, they
all left.

1019
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,280
But they were welcome to stay if
they wanted to.

1020
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,840
If they wanted to be part of the
Algerian national project, they

1021
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,720
could have stayed.
They did not want to.

1022
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,760
But I also think in the case of
Algeria, they saw themselves as

1023
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,280
French.
They had a mother country to go

1024
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,760
to.
I think for a lot of the Israeli

1025
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,320
Jewish population, except for
the more recent people who moved

1026
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:12,640
there from Brooklyn or Europe,
this is where they're going to

1027
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:14,360
be.
You're kind of stuck with them,

1028
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,280
for better or worse.
And I think there is a certain

1029
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,720
recognition of that among the
Palestinians, not as something

1030
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,360
good or bad.
It's just is, it's a reality.

1031
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,240
And there's an element here.
You're right.

1032
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,280
On the one hand, no one wants to
drive out several million

1033
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,000
people.
On the other hand, you also

1034
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,840
can't.
Right, exactly.

1035
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,760
I think one of the things that
I've noticed in the US is that

1036
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:42,000
and ideological sense Israel has
has one in terms of depicting

1037
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,440
any form of Palestinian
resistance as motivated by hate

1038
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:50,280
for Jews and not as opposition
to the colonization of their

1039
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,240
homeland.
And that's where you get the

1040
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,600
accusation of anti-Semitism as a
weapon against anyone who sides

1041
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,440
with the Palestinian people.
I do think that's shifting a

1042
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,680
little bit.
I'm cautious to say that because

1043
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:05,560
obviously it's not nearly
enough.

1044
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,120
So I don't want that to be
portrayed as me saying like

1045
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,280
that's not the primary
narrative.

1046
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,680
But I do find that in the US,
I'm surprised more and more.

1047
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,800
With the conversations I have
with people, they, they're just

1048
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:24,200
in shock about what's happening.
And they say, you know, I would

1049
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,440
never, I could never let that
happen to my family.

1050
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,640
I mean, in the US, we have the
right to bear arms.

1051
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,480
We have the right to defend
ourselves.

1052
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,560
We have stand Your Ground
states.

1053
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,880
But I'm talking about Israel
winning in terms of the ruling

1054
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,280
class, in terms of what it's
able to carry out and the

1055
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,240
dominant narrative.
I do know that there's been a

1056
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:48,600
growing number of people who are
actually looking at the origins

1057
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,760
of Israel and the Palestinian
question and seeing what it

1058
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:57,200
really is and not taking as good
coin this idea that Israel's

1059
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,240
only democracy or whatever, all
the shit that they push.

1060
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,880
Yeah, it's true on an
institutional level.

1061
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,040
I mean, disappointment of the
decade.

1062
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:11,360
Bernie Sanders, he, you know in
his most recent statement that

1063
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:15,880
he put out saying it is a
genocide, but the first third of

1064
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,720
it was saying how Hamas is a
horrible terrorist organization

1065
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,880
and started it all.
Yeah, exactly that it it all

1066
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,240
started on October 7th, Yeah.
And reiterated that Israel has

1067
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:27,200
the right to defend itself.
I would put it a little

1068
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,440
differently though.
I wouldn't put it that Israel is

1069
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,000
1 in terms of the establishment.
I thought that the US has one

1070
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,240
because yes, Israel is one in
the sense that that's what

1071
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,520
Israel wants.
But I think this is what the US

1072
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,080
wants.
Every time I see American

1073
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:45,360
politicians genuflecting before
Israel, a lot of people

1074
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,120
presented as Israel is
controlling American politics.

1075
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:50,000
Bunch of bullshit.
No, they're not.

1076
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:52,360
America controls its own
politics.

1077
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:56,600
Israel is important to America,
and the US is making clear to

1078
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:00,360
its population and to the world
that it will defend its aircraft

1079
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,280
carrier in the Middle East.
I heard I heard about this in a

1080
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,200
podcast.
I think it was our episode 1.

1081
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,600
And that is a hill I will die
on, that this genocide is

1082
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,200
America's genocide.
That occupation is America's

1083
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,920
occupation as much as Israel's,
if not more.

1084
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,960
And this whole sham of the two
state solution, actually, you

1085
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,240
want to know something?
Israelis haven't been pushing

1086
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:22,120
it.
The only people have been

1087
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,000
talking about it is that
Americans.

1088
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:27,200
U.S. politicians, yeah.
The Israelis, Israeli

1089
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,760
politicians have made it clear
they don't want to see a

1090
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,360
Palestinian state.
There's going to be no

1091
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,760
Palestinian state of any kind on
any piece of.

1092
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:35,720
Land.
Yeah, they haven't.

1093
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,520
Yeah, they haven't even like
dangled it as a carrier.

1094
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,080
The only people who talk about
it are American politicians.

1095
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:43,040
And it's a lie.
And you know what?

1096
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,160
I'm going to say one other
thing, One other thing.

1097
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:46,800
I'm sorry.
The other people who despise the

1098
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,880
Palestinians almost as much as
the Americans and the Israelis

1099
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,680
are the Arab rulers.
And what a Palestinian state

1100
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,920
would represent to the Arab
rulers is a dumping ground where

1101
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,840
they can dump all the
Palestinian refugees in their

1102
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,400
lands.
That would be their version of

1103
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,160
the right of return.
Right.

1104
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,920
I think also Biden said it very
clearly.

1105
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,280
If Israel didn't exist, we would
have to create it.

1106
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:12,880
That was a concerning statement
on many levels.

1107
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,920
But I think it gets to your
point about, I mean, he just, he

1108
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:22,320
says it right out.
It is a useful tool, a necessary

1109
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:26,960
destabilizing force for American
imperialist interests in the

1110
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:28,200
Middle East, but also just
around the.

1111
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,880
World They've managed to bring
every Middle Eastern country to

1112
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,800
heel with the exception of Iran,
and they're working on that.

1113
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,120
Yes.
The Houthis and and the Houthis.

1114
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,400
Yeah.
Well, but Yemen, they've yeah,

1115
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,680
great cost in Yemen.
Yemen has been paying for it

1116
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,640
since 2015.
Exactly, exactly.

1117
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:50,760
And of course, the United States
is very pro to state because we

1118
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,800
have many two state solutions in
the United States with our own

1119
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:56,800
indigenous nations.
Reservations.

1120
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,200
And we have refugee camps in the
United States as well that are

1121
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,520
not dissimilar from in many ways
from the Palestinian refugee

1122
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:08,040
camps that exist in Lebanon and
in the West Bank and all over

1123
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:11,960
many parts of the Levant.
I think I've been doing some

1124
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,680
thought experiments about to
your point, Ezra, about that

1125
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,680
This is an extension of the
United States.

1126
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,360
Colonialism is an expansionist
ideology.

1127
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:25,760
It needs to expand.
Whether it's Palestinians,

1128
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,760
Philippines, it doesn't matter.
This is the newest frontier of

1129
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,840
American colonialism, and we are
recreating the same systems that

1130
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:37,320
were unfortunately very
successful here in North America

1131
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,560
when it comes to colonialism and
domination of indigenous peoples

1132
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,920
for exploitation and for
resource extraction.

1133
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:46,960
It's interesting that you
mentioned that because Ezra and

1134
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,000
I were talking about how this
happens where they stand up and

1135
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,520
they say we are on stolen land.
Does this kind of recognition we

1136
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:56,680
are on stolen land.
It's a way for liberals to feel

1137
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,960
really good about themselves,
but they can also do that

1138
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:04,000
because it has no political
impact or implications

1139
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,480
whatsoever.
Whereas if an Israeli were to

1140
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,680
say that we are on stolen land
it would be like OK well then

1141
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:12,080
get the fuck.
Out, you know or share?

1142
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:13,800
It yeah, we're still here, you
know.

1143
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:15,120
Right.
But I would say you could say

1144
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:18,160
the same thing though about most
of the United States.

1145
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,600
Except the difference is, in the
US, no one thinks of the Native

1146
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,200
Americans as a threat anymore.
They have been decimated.

1147
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:27,400
Right, 100%.
But I think whether they're a

1148
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:29,720
threat or not, it remains the
same.

1149
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:33,120
I think in the United States we
are taught that it is such a

1150
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:40,080
kind of a impossibility to
imagine a shared, even at a very

1151
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:43,560
low level, maybe not full
sovereignty of California to a

1152
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:48,040
variety of indigenous nations,
but a more shared society.

1153
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,600
I think we're taught as such an
impossibility.

1154
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,960
But I, I don't know, I think
that we should challenge

1155
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,240
ourselves.
I think all of us on the

1156
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,080
American left are very quick to
criticize the Israeli left,

1157
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,120
which again, I'm not against by
any means.

1158
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,880
But I think we in many ways
always need to put a lot of

1159
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:09,760
those judgments back on
ourselves as also people who

1160
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:15,280
benefit from and live within a
settler colony here.

1161
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,720
The thing is that the US ruling
class is never going to share

1162
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,800
the land or anything like that
with the survivors of the Native

1163
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,800
American genocide.
And I think the difference

1164
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:30,480
between the US and Israel is the
genocide has been so successful

1165
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:34,560
here that they feel no threat
from and they see no threat from

1166
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:37,560
the native population.
So they can get up and wax

1167
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,160
eloquent about how I stand on
land that used to belong to this

1168
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,520
or that tribe.
And it means absolutely nothing

1169
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:45,640
other than to make themselves
feel better about themselves.

1170
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,480
Whereas if you are in Israel,
they do feel a threat.

1171
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:51,000
The very existence of
Palestinians are a threat.

1172
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,800
If you do get up in Israel and
say this, well, the Palestinian

1173
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,640
can say I'm still right here,
bud, you can share the land.

1174
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,400
Well, I would say I think in
Hawaii there's definitely still,

1175
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,240
that's why I'm saying I think
also we think of this issue in

1176
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,160
the United States as a monolith,
but the relationship, the

1177
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,440
diplomatic and political
relationship between the Mohawk

1178
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,160
nation and the United States and
the Hawaiian monarchy in the

1179
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,200
United States is very different.
That's my point on this.

1180
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,560
It is a more complicated
situation even here on this

1181
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:22,080
matter because Hawaii wasn't a
quote state until 1950.

1182
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:26,400
There are lots of sovereignty
issues and land battles that

1183
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,200
happen every day in Hawaii.
And I reference why because I

1184
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:32,040
think it's the most recent but
also the clearest analogous

1185
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:35,760
example in this situation.
This is something that I'm kind

1186
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,960
of been thinking very recently
about.

1187
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:42,680
I think this is a really central
kind of contradiction and issue

1188
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,760
of the kind of American anti
imperialist left.

1189
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:51,280
Like, we do have to deal with
this fact of our own existence

1190
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,240
here regardless of our politics,
right?

1191
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,400
Like whether we think the good
politics or the bad politics,

1192
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:00,200
the facts remain about our
positionality or how this

1193
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,840
country exists here.
You know, we're not exempt

1194
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:07,320
because we're the good thinkers.
So I wanted to talk a little bit

1195
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:09,680
about some on your experience in
the West Bank.

1196
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,400
And one of the things that I
know is really impactful and

1197
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:19,880
that you see visually is that
any soldier in the IDF can just

1198
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,800
completely ruin your life with
full impunity if you're a

1199
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,560
Palestinian.
And the fact that we see of this

1200
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:30,800
is in the prison situation.
So there was a lot of talk about

1201
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,640
the Israeli hostages in Gaza.
And meanwhile, you have 10,000

1202
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:38,680
Palestinians that we know of at
least or being held hostage by

1203
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:41,760
Israel in the Zionist prisons.
And nearly half of them have

1204
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:46,479
never been charged with a crime.
There's been a massive uptick in

1205
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,560
the prison population since
October 7th.

1206
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,640
And then you have a tremendous
amount of evidence about

1207
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:55,920
torture.
And this is not something that

1208
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,319
you have to dig for.
You see evidence of torture,

1209
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:04,600
punching and kicking and sticks
and batons and explicit forced

1210
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,319
nudity.
And this has been accounted for

1211
01:09:07,319 --> 01:09:11,040
by prominent doctors who have
been imprisoned as well.

1212
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:14,560
So could you talk a little bit
about the prison situation from

1213
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:16,960
your observation or how it's
affecting some of the families

1214
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,800
that you work with?
I tell you, the prison situation

1215
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,840
in Palestine general, the
situation inside the Israeli

1216
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,880
prisons is one of the most
underreported crimes of this

1217
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,880
entire two years.
The prison conditions were

1218
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:35,920
always pretty harsh in Israel,
in the Israeli prisons, but the

1219
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:41,960
last two years they have gotten
to death camp levels of abuse,

1220
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,160
frankly, mainly in the way that
this also both for people in

1221
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,200
prison but also the loved ones
of in prison people.

1222
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,200
The Israelis have cut off all
visitation.

1223
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,680
They have cut off almost all
communication between prisoners

1224
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,120
and their families.
And this is particularly hard

1225
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,080
for people who had loved ones in
prisons before October 7th

1226
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,920
because many families haven't
heard from their loved one in

1227
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:08,760
almost two years.
Plus, the Red Cross is not able

1228
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,560
to visit the prisons.
The Red Cross does not seem to

1229
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,360
be working very hard to try and
visit the prisons.

1230
01:10:15,440 --> 01:10:19,680
The Red Cross has also stopped
communicating with Palestinian

1231
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,360
family members of prisoners.
And the main way people get

1232
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:26,120
information about their loved
ones is when people are released

1233
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,920
from prison, they come out with
names and numbers.

1234
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:30,760
I saw your son, I saw your
daughter.

1235
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,000
This type of information.
There are also methods about

1236
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,560
getting other written
information out with prisoners

1237
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,560
as well.
But another thing is that there

1238
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,640
are over 400 and this is the
reported.

1239
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:46,120
Again, all of these numbers that
we're using is the reported.

1240
01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:47,360
And it's under.
Reported.

1241
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:49,320
Yeah, and it's always under
reported.

1242
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,640
So there's also the situation of
children in prison.

1243
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:58,760
There are over 400 children in
Israeli prisons and they have

1244
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,840
similar lack of communication
with their families.

1245
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:06,520
And many times also when
prisoners are released, half the

1246
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:10,960
time they're released directly
into hospitals because they are

1247
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:15,080
in such poor health.
People come out with missing

1248
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:19,640
limbs, people come out with
severe brain damage, people come

1249
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:26,160
out with severe malnutrition,
other signs of obvious torture.

1250
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:31,000
Scabies is a really big problem
in the prisons right now.

1251
01:11:31,480 --> 01:11:34,840
Skin infections in general, but
particularly bugs.

1252
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:38,240
Huge, huge problem in the
prisons.

1253
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:43,120
I mean, these are death camps.
We have reports of people coming

1254
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:46,480
out of prison who were just
taken, disappeared from a

1255
01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:51,240
checkpoint, who were in a cell
with a dozen other guys who were

1256
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:57,800
given basically one piece of
bread that was so hard they had

1257
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:01,800
to soak it in water, not just
dip it, soak it in water to be

1258
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,400
able to eat.
And similarly, we've heard one

1259
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:09,520
bowl of rice for 12 guys.
These are the glimpses of what

1260
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,840
we hear from people being
released.

1261
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:15,760
So the prison situation in the
West Bank right now is really

1262
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,800
extreme.
I've had mothers come up to me

1263
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,840
and say, can you please get me
information on my son?

1264
01:12:21,440 --> 01:12:23,560
I don't know where he is.
I haven't heard from him.

1265
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:26,520
You're American.
Can you go to the prison and

1266
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,400
talk to them?
And to be clear, these kids,

1267
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:31,680
they can be taken away on mere
suspicion.

1268
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:36,120
They can be taken away from
having any sort of association,

1269
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,840
like a family member stepping
out of bounds, quote UN quote,

1270
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,800
can mean basically anything.
A soldier just has to make it

1271
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,360
up.
We have one family who a family

1272
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:49,320
member was taken because his
brother was suspected to be

1273
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:54,960
involved with some resistance
stuff and he had given him a

1274
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:59,800
sandwich and they considered
that material support Jesus and

1275
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:01,880
arrested him.
Another thing to note about

1276
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:05,480
these is the arrests are also
extremely violent.

1277
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:10,360
Many deaths happen much like in
the US arrests can be just as

1278
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:13,360
dangerous as being in prison.
We've seen some really horrific

1279
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,840
situations of people being
beaten, basically lifeless as

1280
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,360
they're being arrested.
There was one case of a young

1281
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:25,040
man who's this is I guess
trigger warning for like extreme

1282
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:30,520
violence, but there was a
Israeli army talk dog that bit

1283
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:34,160
his hand clean off in the
process of arrest.

1284
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:37,080
Also when they arrest in a home
that they don't knock on the

1285
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:40,960
door nicely and come in and read
your rights, they bust open,

1286
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:43,240
they'll blindfold everyone,
they'll put them in a room,

1287
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:45,880
they'll handcuff children,
they'll throw a tear ass

1288
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,680
canister in the room.
These are like some of the most

1289
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:50,720
violent arrests I've ever heard
of.

1290
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:55,040
So the arrests are also
extremely traumatizing to family

1291
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:58,040
members, particularly children.
I don't even know what to say.

1292
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:00,040
It does feel so much like Nazi
Germany.

1293
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:04,440
So far as to arrest 7 year old
boys.

1294
01:14:04,480 --> 01:14:08,760
It's a sociopathic society.
One and Israel also believes and

1295
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:13,120
practices collective punishment,
so an entire family is targeted,

1296
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:16,320
and that includes all the
children, the grandmother,

1297
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:19,520
everyone and just routinely
terrorized.

1298
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:22,480
Yeah.
So if some young man carries out

1299
01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:27,560
an operation against soldiers or
civilians or whatever in or out

1300
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,880
of Israel, not only is he
targeted, basically anyone who

1301
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:36,200
is a relative of his will be
targeted, arrested, detained.

1302
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:38,640
And their favorite practice is
to destroy their homes.

1303
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:42,280
Home demolitions.
Yeah, and the other thing is

1304
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:45,560
these families also become
ostracized, in many cases within

1305
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:48,080
their own communities because
people are scared.

1306
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:49,520
They don't want to be
affiliated.

1307
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:51,640
Right.
They don't want to be targeted

1308
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:55,120
as well.
So it also causes issues within

1309
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,080
communities as well.
Yeah, and that's also a way of

1310
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:01,760
quelling resistance too, because
it's creating so much fear.

1311
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:03,800
Exactly.
It doesn't have to be an

1312
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:05,600
operation against anything.
It can be.

1313
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:07,160
Oh yeah, no, they can just make
up shit.

1314
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:10,360
Yeah, I've seen interviews with
soldiers who said I was bored

1315
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:12,440
that day.
Yeah, Also, it's just because

1316
01:15:12,440 --> 01:15:16,160
you're from the camp, that's it.
You're from the camp, you're

1317
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,640
guilty because the goal is
extermination.

1318
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:23,920
It's also to try and destroy the
identity and concept of the

1319
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:25,640
refugee who has the right of
return.

1320
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:30,000
So these camps are also targeted
because they don't want there to

1321
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,120
be people to return and you
know, people in the camps, these

1322
01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:38,880
are strong identities.
This is also to try and force

1323
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,720
people away from their claim and
right to return.

1324
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:43,920
You're absolutely right.
This has been a favorite thing

1325
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:48,080
of Netanyahu since October 7th,
with basically wanting to

1326
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,880
destroy the designation of
refugees and descendants of

1327
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:57,040
refugees for Palestinians in
both the West Bank and those

1328
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,120
still surviving Gaza.
Yeah, because that is the real

1329
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:07,080
threat to Israel in its current
form, those millions of people

1330
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:12,120
who have the right of return,
who live very close, very close

1331
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:14,280
to the places in which they are
from.

1332
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,600
And hold the keys and the deeds
to the lands and homes from

1333
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:19,880
which they were expelled.
Exactly.

1334
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:22,800
Exactly.
Just as an illustration for

1335
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:27,040
people who may not know, there
is no such thing as civilian law

1336
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:30,080
in the West Bank.
The West Bank is governed under

1337
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:33,240
Israeli military law.
Supposing you actually reach the

1338
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:37,760
point where you are accused of a
crime, you do not appear before

1339
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,040
a civilian judge.
You appear before a military

1340
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:42,000
judge.
There's no obligation on the

1341
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,800
part of the state to provide you
any legal aid or anything like

1342
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:46,520
that.
Frankly, at this point, there's

1343
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:49,040
no obligation on the part of the
state to feed you or anything.

1344
01:16:49,480 --> 01:16:54,520
But there's a story, and this is
from 2016 that always struck me.

1345
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:57,200
It's from a magazine.
It's a literary magazine.

1346
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:00,840
This author was just talking
about the conditions of life for

1347
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:04,560
Palestinians and Palestinian
prisoners, and she or Rachel

1348
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:07,920
Kushner tells the story.
A child lucky enough to get a

1349
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,160
lawyer from an NGO Israel
provides no legal aid to.

1350
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:14,560
West Bank residents will be
mightily pressured to plead

1351
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:17,360
guilty.
There is no point in declaring

1352
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:23,760
innocence since 99.47% of trials
result in a guilty conviction.

1353
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:28,120
An anecdote was supplied to us
about a rare scene in which a

1354
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:30,520
lawyer actually got an
acquittal.

1355
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,520
The translator stopped
proceedings because he did not

1356
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,600
know the Arabic word for
acquitted.

1357
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:39,320
What?
Non guilty?

1358
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:40,920
I don't know how to say that.
Wow.

1359
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:42,280
Yeah.
I'm glad you brought that up,

1360
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,600
because I was going to say that
the other thing about these

1361
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:48,120
military courts is that it's a
99% conviction rate.

1362
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:50,200
I imagine they've rounded up
since then, yeah?

1363
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:52,640
Yeah, it's exactly.
It's 100.

1364
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:59,520
It's 100% and also 50% of that
10,000 number are held on what's

1365
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:03,120
called administrative detention,
which is the essentially

1366
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:08,040
pretrial holding of someone in
prison.

1367
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,680
I would argue now because since
COVID, Israel hasn't been

1368
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:15,680
reporting the temporary arrests,
probably more than half now.

1369
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:18,200
They aren't even going through
the motions of these fake

1370
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:20,400
trials.
They're just holding people on

1371
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,000
administrative detention for
years and years and years.

1372
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:27,560
And there's also the suspicion
that half of these prison

1373
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:30,160
releases is just because they
run out of room.

1374
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:32,560
Yeah.
And then aren't they released?

1375
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,080
And then there's detained again
like?

1376
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:36,640
Yeah, the vast majority of
people who are released in these

1377
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,840
prisoner exchange are re
arrested within a couple months

1378
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,640
because the Israelis know that
they're just releasing them into

1379
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,200
a larger prison.
And This is why the Israelis are

1380
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,360
so actually against doing those
kind of like negotiated

1381
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:53,080
deportations of prisoners,
because if they deport them to

1382
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,440
Lebanon, if they deport them to
Egypt, if they deport them to, I

1383
01:18:56,440 --> 01:18:58,640
know if someone who is deported
to Venezuela because they were

1384
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,040
half Venezuelan, it is door
difficult to rearrest them.

1385
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:04,400
But if they released them back
to the West Bank, they could get

1386
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:05,760
them tomorrow and no one would
care.

1387
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,840
I think this is also a really
important thing about a lot of

1388
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:11,320
those prisoner exchanges as
those people, they either

1389
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:14,240
rearrest them or they kill them
or they just kill them once

1390
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:16,480
they're out.
The prison situation and the use

1391
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:19,360
of prisons.
Yes, many women are arrested as

1392
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:23,440
well, but particularly for men.
This is a this is a real crisis.

1393
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:28,040
And the level of abuse of these
prisoners is incredible.

1394
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:35,880
The known number killed since
October 7th, 23 is 75 or more

1395
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:38,520
who died in prison.
It's probably higher.

1396
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:40,920
I'm sure it's higher, but that's
what's known.

1397
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:44,520
There's literally a video of
prison guards raping a

1398
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:48,880
Palestinian prisoner, followed
by videos upon videos of

1399
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:52,440
Israelis protesting to defend
the rapist.

1400
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:58,680
And in April 2024, a prominent
surgeon from Gaza at Nana

1401
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:02,800
Borscht, who had been arrested
in December, died from wounds

1402
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:07,520
sustained in a gang rape.
This is the the, this is what

1403
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,720
they run as prison.
They're torture chambers and

1404
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:12,280
death camps.
As you, just as you.

1405
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:16,760
I think the image of that mob
that stormed the prison

1406
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:19,320
defending the rape of a
Palestinian prisoner and

1407
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:23,120
defending the rapist, I think
that was a real, I don't know if

1408
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:26,680
it was a turning point, but I
know that for a while Ezra and I

1409
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:32,720
have spent time trying to look
for fissures in Israeli society.

1410
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:37,000
Since October 7th, whenever I
hear about a protest in Tel

1411
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,480
Aviv, I kind of look and see
what are the main slogans.

1412
01:20:39,480 --> 01:20:42,920
And the slogans are almost
always centered around bring our

1413
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,120
boys home.
Not that Palestinians are

1414
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,520
humans.
The main concern is over anyone

1415
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:52,480
who's being held hostage right
now in Gaza.

1416
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:57,600
Poll after poll shows upwards of
80% in Israel.

1417
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:00,640
It's probably more than that.
Support the genocide right now.

1418
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,480
What is your measure of Israeli
society and how it's changed

1419
01:21:04,480 --> 01:21:07,320
over the last two years, 10
years, 15 years?

1420
01:21:07,480 --> 01:21:10,640
It's gotten just more extreme.
It's gotten more extreme, but

1421
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:15,640
also the pressure to prove the
worth of the project has become

1422
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:18,760
much more extreme as well.
What do you mean by that?

1423
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:24,640
To prove that the cost of
maintaining Israel is worth it

1424
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:29,440
and is necessary has become more
difficult to justify.

1425
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,040
When that happens, you can
realize it's not worth it and

1426
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:35,760
you can fight to dismantle it.
Or you can become more extreme

1427
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:40,000
and they have chosen to become
much more extreme and you have

1428
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:43,440
seen record people leaving
Israel.

1429
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,640
The economy is not doing well at
all.

1430
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:52,960
The major port of a lot in the
South is essentially non

1431
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:55,280
functional anymore because no
one's shipping to it.

1432
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:59,880
The port in Haifa in the north
had to be shut down for a period

1433
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:04,360
of time because Iran strikes
were very effective in

1434
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:06,280
destroying the major
infrastructure.

1435
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:10,240
Economically.
Many people are leaving Israel

1436
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:15,880
as well because it is not doing
particularly well if we just

1437
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:20,520
look at the numbers.
So that is a positive sign.

1438
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:26,000
Again, this is all coming at
much too high a cost, but I do

1439
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:28,720
think it is still important to
note where there are these

1440
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:32,640
places that have had impact on
the longevity of the colonial

1441
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:35,080
project.
In Hebrew, they've had their

1442
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:38,880
mask off forever, but in English
in the last two years, they've

1443
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:41,840
been fully translating
themselves into English in the

1444
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:44,360
last two years.
It's a really sick, depraved

1445
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,720
society.
I don't know what you do with

1446
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:48,160
that.
I also have very little

1447
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:52,040
interaction with Israelis myself
actually, so.

1448
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:53,680
Is that because you're a self
hating Jew?

1449
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:59,040
Yeah, yeah.
It's also because other than

1450
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:02,640
going to East Jerusalem for very
short periods of time, I do not

1451
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:07,760
spend any time in 48 Palestine
and I also do not use the

1452
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:10,400
airport.
We only enter Palestine through

1453
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:12,680
the only border that
Palestinians can enter through,

1454
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:16,920
which is the Alan B King Hussein
Bridge from Jordan to the

1455
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:20,160
Jericho area.
So our interactions with

1456
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,440
Israelis are essentially
soldiers at checkpoints and then

1457
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:25,520
settlers that we share the roads
with.

1458
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:27,640
Cream of the crop.
Yeah.

1459
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:31,280
Which are often one and the same
people, the soldiers and the

1460
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:32,880
settlers.
This is a really good point.

1461
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:37,920
The vast majority of soldiers
who serve in the West Bank are

1462
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:42,520
from the settlements and are
usually actually reservists who

1463
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:47,360
volunteer to kind of do this as
a side hustle, you know, civil

1464
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:48,480
service.
Yes.

1465
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,920
So most of the sellers that you
interact with in the West Bank

1466
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:55,640
are from these insane settler
communities, which is partially

1467
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:59,240
why they are just so dangerous.
One of the reasons I want to

1468
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:02,280
raise this question is I think
what we're seeing playing out is

1469
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:07,000
the logic of Zionism.
If you go back, this sort of

1470
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:12,720
thing has always been there.
It's been masked to some extent

1471
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:18,080
in one way or another by this
facade of liberal Zionism and at

1472
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:21,120
times even socialist Zionism and
things like that.

1473
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:23,600
But a Colonel has always been
there.

1474
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:28,360
There is a genocide, a logic to
it, because it's premised on we

1475
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:29,840
want the land, we don't want the
people.

1476
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:32,720
Well, there's really only a
couple of ways of achieving

1477
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:35,080
that.
You expel the people, you're you

1478
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:38,720
kill the people.
And what has been clear in the

1479
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:42,920
last, really, I keep going back
to this, but really since Oslo

1480
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:46,600
has been this incredible
rightward shift of Israeli

1481
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,760
society to the point that when
you look at the founding of the

1482
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:52,480
State of Israel, it was Labor
Zionists who founded it.

1483
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:56,400
It was the Ben Gurion types, the
Labor Zionists.

1484
01:24:56,840 --> 01:25:01,360
Today there are more members of
the Knesset that are Palestinian

1485
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:02,920
than there are members of the
Labor Party.

1486
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:06,600
The Labor Zionists have become
just unnecessary.

1487
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:08,800
There's no point to them.
There's no point to the facade.

1488
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,840
They've become full mask off.
That's where you get in the

1489
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:17,360
1980's the Kahanis movement was
illegal in Israel and today it's

1490
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:20,920
running Israel.
The other example is it used to

1491
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:24,520
be that Israel denied the Nakba.
It didn't happen.

1492
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:27,200
It's a lie.
They left voluntarily.

1493
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:31,000
We didn't do it.
Whereas today what they say is

1494
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:34,440
we want a new Nakba, we need to
do it better.

1495
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:37,320
Or the problem with the knock
bow was that it wasn't complete

1496
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:39,920
enough.
We went from a denial, which

1497
01:25:40,440 --> 01:25:42,640
within that denial is a sense of
shame.

1498
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:44,120
There's something we need to
deny.

1499
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:46,000
There's something we need to
pretend didn't happen even

1500
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:48,680
though it happened to.
Now we're going to embrace the

1501
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:53,880
crime and say we needed to be
worse and bigger and more deadly

1502
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:56,280
than it used to be.
An expulsion is not enough.

1503
01:25:56,280 --> 01:26:00,800
We need to kill them.
And that has become basically

1504
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:04,120
the defining marker of Israeli
society to the point where on

1505
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:06,720
the occasion that you see,
remember a few months ago, an

1506
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:11,040
Israeli teacher, all he did was
say, you know, we should

1507
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:14,040
remember the young children of
Gaza who are killed.

1508
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:16,320
He was gone after and fired from
his job.

1509
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:19,640
And who went after who started
the witch hunt was the kids.

1510
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,280
Yeah, the students in his
classroom, they like basically

1511
01:26:22,440 --> 01:26:24,840
drove him out of the classroom.
There's a video.

1512
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:25,640
It's crazy.
So.

1513
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:29,240
That has become Israeli society
and I'm trying to think of an

1514
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:32,600
analogy and I don't know that
this works as an analogy in

1515
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:35,440
terms of a genocide will kill
them all type of logic.

1516
01:26:35,480 --> 01:26:38,920
I'm thinking mid 19th century
United States as it's expanding

1517
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:41,440
to the West.
You know the only good one is a

1518
01:26:41,440 --> 01:26:43,400
dead 1.
Manifest Destiny.

1519
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:47,320
If you want an analogy again,
you can go back now in the

1520
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:50,360
continental United States and
say, oh wow, I feel bad about

1521
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:51,600
it.
OK, we'll remember it.

1522
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:54,000
We'll have an Indigenous Peoples
Day and all that.

1523
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:56,120
I will.
After we've killed 90% of them,

1524
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:58,840
sure.
And the remaining that we forced

1525
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:01,280
into boarding school and abuse.
Exactly.

1526
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,760
Yeah, but at the time when it
was happening, the only good one

1527
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:07,680
is a dead one.
Well, we're at the only good one

1528
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:11,400
is a dead one stage of Israel.
I think also, if you go back to

1529
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:17,680
looking at 1948, at the time a
lot of the Israeli military and

1530
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:22,720
politicians saw it 1948 as a
missed opportunity that they

1531
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:25,240
should have occupied all of
historical Palestine.

1532
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:28,320
And so they've been looking for
this opportunity since then.

1533
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,520
That's not a secret.
Yeah, I think about this moment

1534
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:36,720
often, but we had one mother and
Janine tell us once before they

1535
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:40,800
were displaced from the camp and
she said, you know, they used to

1536
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:43,120
come to arrest.
They used to come to the camp to

1537
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:44,720
arrest.
They come now to kill.

1538
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:47,920
Yeah.
There didn't used to be a thing

1539
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:51,000
called the Gaza Strip.
They created the Gaza Strip as a

1540
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:53,480
dumping ground for Palestinian
refugee.

1541
01:27:53,480 --> 01:27:58,040
Gaza used to be a town and a few
villages and another town in the

1542
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:00,720
South called Rafa.
It used to be not very densely

1543
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:04,480
populated, didn't used to be a
strip, it just used to be there,

1544
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:08,080
just part of Palestine.
Yeah, 80% of those two

1545
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:10,040
millionaire refugees.
Right.

1546
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:12,880
I listened someone the other day
and I can't remember who it was

1547
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,120
because I do listen to a lot of
interviews on this question.

1548
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:19,800
But I was talking about Gaza and
described it as a Guinea pig.

1549
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:22,760
And I was thinking about that a
lot.

1550
01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:28,280
This idea that what the brutal
rulers and imperialists can get

1551
01:28:28,280 --> 01:28:30,080
away in Gaza, they can get away
with.

1552
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:35,200
And that this kind of moment
that we're in also where there

1553
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:38,360
is a heightened level of
understanding and visibility

1554
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:42,920
about the colonial project and
what Israel is all about and

1555
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:47,880
Palestinian subjugation.
But there's also a sense of it

1556
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:52,080
is visible for everyone.
And yet the rulers are more

1557
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:55,080
emboldened to carry out this
final solution.

1558
01:28:55,560 --> 01:29:01,600
So in that context, what is the
message that you would send

1559
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:07,440
Simone to political activists
who really want to take a stand

1560
01:29:07,440 --> 01:29:12,000
against the genocide in Gaza and
against the annexation of the

1561
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:14,800
West Bank?
One thing that I think is really

1562
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:18,360
important is recognition that
there is a big language divide

1563
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:20,440
on this issue.
There are conversations that are

1564
01:29:20,440 --> 01:29:22,280
happening in Arabic and there
are conversations that happen in

1565
01:29:22,280 --> 01:29:24,040
English.
And a lot of times they look a

1566
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:26,760
little bit different and they're
being had by different people.

1567
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:31,400
And something that I would
encourage people who want to get

1568
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:36,360
more involved, particularly want
to get more involved in material

1569
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,960
ways in Palestine, in the West
Bank, is to get more familiar

1570
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:42,560
with Arabic.
Whether it's just learning the

1571
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:45,920
alphabet, learning how to read a
little bit, having some

1572
01:29:45,920 --> 01:29:50,080
elementary understanding, I
think is actually a really,

1573
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:54,000
really important thing because
this is an Arabic struggle in

1574
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:57,320
many ways.
And also, you know, we, we do

1575
01:29:57,320 --> 01:29:59,680
have a lot of tools for
translation now as well in terms

1576
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:02,760
of written stuff and to follow
West Bank news sources and

1577
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,280
Arabic news sources.
And Google Translate is actually

1578
01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:10,160
pretty good for reading.
I would not use it to speak, but

1579
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:12,760
if you're trying to translate a
headline or an Instagram

1580
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,360
caption, it's actually pretty
good.

1581
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:18,920
And I think I would just
challenge people to challenge

1582
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:21,200
themselves to go across that
language, divide a little bit

1583
01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:24,120
more and demolarize themselves
with Arabic.

1584
01:30:24,440 --> 01:30:28,520
I think that's my one big piece
of advice, especially because if

1585
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:33,160
you're coming at this from a
more Marxist or political kind

1586
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:37,120
of ideological position, the
working class in Palestine

1587
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,920
speaks Arabic.
And so if you want to also

1588
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:43,560
connect and be more active and
aligned in that way, it is a

1589
01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:46,160
really important piece.
And I don't say this lightly, I

1590
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:49,800
am learning Arabic.
I am not fluent in any way, but

1591
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:52,000
I have just seen in my own work
it is a little bit of a

1592
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:55,600
handicap.
And I think if we look also in

1593
01:30:55,640 --> 01:31:03,160
Israeli policy, Arabic in Israel
is essentially be legally not

1594
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:07,080
allowed in the schools.
So the nation state law, this is

1595
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:12,720
something in Israel that they
essentially want to criminalize

1596
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:16,880
and erase Arabic from the land.
And so I do think that this is

1597
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:21,320
something that is a big thing.
The other piece of advice I have

1598
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:28,200
is that if you are visiting
Palestine to enter through Alan

1599
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:33,360
B, the King Hussein Bridge via
Jordan, it is to enter Palestine

1600
01:31:33,360 --> 01:31:36,040
via Jordan through the land
border if you can.

1601
01:31:36,480 --> 01:31:40,720
It is, I think, really an
important act of solidarity to

1602
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:45,960
travel as Palestinians travel
and to travel in that same

1603
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:47,560
manner.
Because if you are going to the

1604
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:51,680
West Bank, the vast majority of
people you interact with cannot

1605
01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:56,720
use the airport.
And also the airport is you are

1606
01:31:56,720 --> 01:31:59,960
going to have to spend money.
You are going in Israel and in

1607
01:31:59,960 --> 01:32:01,800
the Israeli airport and in Tel
Aviv.

1608
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:04,960
And people ask you, they say,
how did you enter?

1609
01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:06,240
Did you come through the
airport?

1610
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:09,040
People a lot of times are
surprised when foreigners come

1611
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:11,560
through the land border, but
they respect it a lot because

1612
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:14,320
it's a really important act of
solidarity because, yeah, it is

1613
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:16,960
inconvenient.
It takes a lot longer.

1614
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:20,160
Sometimes they close the border
at random times and you have to

1615
01:32:20,160 --> 01:32:23,240
come back the next day.
But a lot of people interact

1616
01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:26,040
with don't have a choice and so
it's important to experience

1617
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:27,400
that.
I also think it's a very eye

1618
01:32:27,400 --> 01:32:30,560
opening experience to go through
the Palestinian border

1619
01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:49,360
solidarity in this moment.
Look like we're all trying to do

1620
01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:52,400
something.
But I do think you do have a

1621
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:54,960
responsibility to not just do
anything.

1622
01:32:55,280 --> 01:33:00,040
We actually owe Palestinians
more than just uncritical

1623
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:05,080
solidarity this far into both 77
years but also two years into a

1624
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:07,920
genocide.
Just doing your best is not

1625
01:33:07,920 --> 01:33:31,400
enough anymore.
Thanks for listening to Unwashed

1626
01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:34,160
and Unruly, and thank you to
Simone for joining us and

1627
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:36,840
sharing so many important
insights and a very critical

1628
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:39,160
moment in the struggle for
Palestinian liberation.

1629
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:42,440
Please follow us on Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1630
01:33:42,440 --> 01:33:45,080
find us and make sure to rate
and review and check out our

1631
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:46,960
website, unwashedun-ruly.com.