John Brown: American Revolutionary, Fighter for Black Freedom

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It's time for you and me to
stand up for ourselves.

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Welcome to unwashed and unruly.
We're being executed for treason

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is a badge of honor.
Today we're talking about the

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great militant abolitionist John
Brown, who fought for an armed

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revolution to uproot slavery.
I'm your host Lola Michaels,

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joined by the abolition
clinician Ezra Saeed.

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Hi, Lola.
Hi everyone.

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And terrorist apologist Cam
Cruise.

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What's up everybody?
Boom boom boom.

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Reminder to our listeners that
you can find all our episodes on

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various platforms as well as our
website, unwashedandreally.com.

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And please do us a favor this
holiday season and give us the

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gift of a rating and a review.
On December 2nd, 1859, John

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Brown was executed.
On the day of his hanging, he

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wrote.
I, John Brown, am now quite

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certain that the crimes of this
guilty land will never be purged

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away but with blood.
John Brown fought for organized

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militant struggle against the
slave system.

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To some, he was a madman, A
fanatic, a terrorist.

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To others, he was one of the few
white men of his time willing to

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fight not only to end slavery,
but to establish a nation where

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black people could live as
equals under the law.

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In this episode, we'll be
commemorating this extraordinary

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abolitionist who wasn't about
begging or praying for the

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peaceful or legal end to the
system of chattel slavery.

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Brown was not just about words
or beliefs.

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He picked up arms long before
others were ready to follow him,

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and he did not compromise.
Though his raid on Harpers Ferry

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in 1859 was not a military
success, it was a Thunderbolt

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heard around the country,
opening the road for the Civil

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War.
The raid LED John Brown to the

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gallows, but history proved him
right.

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As the legendary abolitionist
Frederick Douglass wrote, I

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could live for the slave.
John Brown could die for him.

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Today we look back at the life,
faith, strategy and principles

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of the man who took the warning
Live by the sword, die by the

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sword to overturn America's most
heinous institution.

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So we've been wanting to do this
episode for a while now.

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This is going to be our only
December episode.

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We had wanted to record on the
commemoration of his execution,

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but this is something that we
think is really important for

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our audience, and I'm not really
that surprised that people don't

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know about John Brown or have
really skewed ideas about him.

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The mainstream textbooks and
Hollywood portray John Brown as

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this unstable killer driven by
zealotry, and it's been a

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century and 1/2 after his
execution and he's still very

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much a debated figure in
American history.

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And I think one reason why he's
considered a fanatic is because

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he was among the first Americans
to draw the correct conclusion

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about slavery.
This was not a system that could

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be legislated away or morally
persuaded out of existence.

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It was a system held in place by
torture and violence and could

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only be destroyed by force.
And he insisted that enslaved

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humans had the right to fight
back, and liberation would

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require revolution or uprising.
You know, not just rhetoric.

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So I want to start there and
hear from you both about what do

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you think we gain by reclaiming
the real John Brown the

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revolutionary?
So I am a product of the public

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education system and I didn't
learn about John Brown at all.

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If I did learn about him, it was
probably about Harpers Ferry and

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learning about him as a spark to
the Civil War.

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But I'm pretty sure if my
teacher told me that there was a

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white man and sliding slaves to
rise up and kill their owners,

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that I probably would have
remembered that.

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So yeah, I didn't learn much
about John Brown.

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And like you said, I'm really
excited to talk about him.

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One of the reasons we wanted to
do this podcast is because

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things are so crazy politically
in the US right now.

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It kind of feels like we're at
this boiling point.

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So it's so important to look
towards the past, to look

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towards other resistant
movements, to kind of inform

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what we're doing today and
what's going on today and

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reflect on the structure of
things in the structure of

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resistance.
So I think it's just really

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important that we look back at
these movements and these

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figures who were so brave to
fight against the dynamics of

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their times and the powers of
their times.

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I think John Brown is important
historically because he could

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see further than others could,
and he understood in a

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fundamental way America and the
American slave system.

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And if you want to change the
world today, you have to have

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that kind of understanding and
that willingness to fight.

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And John Brown did, from the
beginning.

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And it wasn't just that he was a
fighter for for the abolition of

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slavery and for black rights
more broadly, but that his

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understanding of how slavery
work and how the United States

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worked motivated his tactics.
And his tactics, while one can

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quibble with things here and
there, were fundamentally sound.

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I was listening to an episode on
John Brown and they kept talking

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about how he was problematic.
And I was so frustrated with

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that because it comes really
down to what he symbolizes and

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what role he played in history,
that he was about black people

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taking up arms against
oppression.

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And I, I feel like one of the
things that we talked about in

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preparation for this episode was
that so many of the people who

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find fault with John Brown or
condemn him really, at bottom,

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are denouncing the right to
break the chains of slavery.

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Did they say how he was
problematic?

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I mean, it's generally, you
know, they'll talk about views

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of the time, things that, you
know, like that he was had a

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temper.
Yeah, I think generally he's

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kind of shown as this crazed and
violent figure.

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And I think violence is one of
the big defining features people

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think about when they think
about him.

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Like, he was violent, he was a
terrorist.

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And it's so strange when you
think of the larger context of

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the momentum, the fact that
abolitionists were being

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regularly beaten and killed by
people who were pro slavery.

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So there was a lot of violence
happening at the time, but not a

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lot of violence was occurring on
the abolitionist side for a long

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time.
A lot of abolitionists were

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pacifist.
So I think he stood out in that

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way.
I would add one other thing.

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John Brown was stubborn.
John Brown was had a short

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temper.
These are all things that

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everyone says about him.
I don't think that makes a human

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being problematic because what
John Brown was stubborn and had

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a temper about was slavery.
And one speaks of violence.

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I can think of no greater
violence than the genocide of

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Native Americans and the
enslavement of black people in

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the US.
Compared to that, John Brown did

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nothing in terms of violence.
And my argument is actually that

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John Brown was not a violent
man.

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John Brown was not seeking
violence.

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But John Brown violently hated
slavery and he understood that

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sometimes violence is necessary.
And when you look at his acts of

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violence, they were always
deliberate, they were always

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thought out, They were never
chaotic and they were never

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indiscriminate.
He was not a violent man.

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He was a man who understood that
it would take violence to

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destroy slavery.
So when you look at a picture of

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John Brown, it's also like he
kind of looks like somebody they

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rescued from a mountain who's
been, like, lost for two months.

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Like, his skin looks like tanned
leather, and his eyes are wild.

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So yeah, I think also when you
look at a picture of him, you

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can see why he was easily sold
as a madman.

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Well, he also had a very hard
life.

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He was a.
Well, he just lived a time

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where, like, life was miserable
for people.

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Right.
And, and he came, he was

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incredibly impoverished, he and
his family.

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He, it was a abject failure.
Every business proposition he

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went after, he was a Tanner,
which is an incredibly difficult

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job.
And because you're making

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leather will make you look like
leather.

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And in a lot of those pictures,
he was also conveying his deadly

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seriousness, and that was
something he was also known for.

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In the line of of deadly
seriousness, I heard a quote

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saying that he'd never danced
and that was like something he

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was proud of because he was such
a a serious and devout dude.

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I didn't know that quote, but
that's something that I can

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imagine him saying because of
his religiosity.

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The man was a deeply, deeply
devout man and held himself to a

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higher standard in terms of his
devoutness than even others.

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And The funny thing is, John
Brown was not very much a church

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going guy because a lot of the
churches he went to he didn't

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like very much.
There's a story, I think this

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was in Ohio, but I may have this
location wrong, where he was

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going to a church and there were
a small number of free blacks in

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the area and they were attend
the church, but they would be

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segregated to the back.
They would stand in the back or

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sit on the ground at the back of
the church, and John Brown very

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ostentatiously got himself and
his family up and brought a

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family of black people to take
his place in the Pew.

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This caused an uproar and so he
made sure to do it the very next

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week and the very next week.
Yeah, and we'll definitely come

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back to the religious aspect.
I want to talk a little bit

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about what Cam mentioned about
the abolitionist movement at the

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time and the pacifism and kind
of how he stood apart and just

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give a little background.
John Brown was born in 1800.

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He had a really interesting
history.

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His father was an active
abolitionist and a station

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master and conductor on the
Underground Railroad, and so was

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John Brown.
I want to remind people that

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when you're talking about the
Underground Railroad, it's one

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of the gutsiest and most heroic
things you can do during this

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period.
I mean, you're breaking the law.

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You're doing direct action.
This was part of his dedication

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to waging a war on slavery, and
he started to study military

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tactics and guerrilla warfare,
and he really became a

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revolutionary abolitionist.
And that was really different

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from the other abolitionists who
were pacifists and thought you

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could end slavery without
violence.

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There were a lot of deep
differences among abolitionists,

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different wings.
A lot of them opposed slavery

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but did not oppose racism or
were openly racist or didn't

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support the idea of equal
citizenship.

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And John Brown was really
unique.

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He believed that black and white
people were equal before God and

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the law.
He drafted a constitution

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guaranteeing full civil rights
in a future free Republic.

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So, you know, he was really
willing to fight and kill and

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die to make his vision real.
So let's talk a little bit about

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how he differed from some of the
other well known abolitionists

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of his time and why his approach
was unique.

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Well.
The giant figure of the

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abolitionist movement at the
time, besides Frederick

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Douglass, who is in a sort of
different category and much

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closer to John Brown, was
William Lloyd Garrison.

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William Lloyd Garrison founded
the Liberator in 1831.

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That was the newspaper and it is
generally portrayed and

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accepted.
That was the birth of the

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abolitionist movement in the
United States as a national

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movement, or at least in the
North, that it was not just a

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number of disparate people all
over the North arguing for

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abolitionism.
By no means was Garrison the

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first abolitionist or anything
like that, but he was the first

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one to organize it as a
movement.

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His vision was deeply religious.
Also, all these men were deeply

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religious.
It formed how they viewed the

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world, and he believed slavery
to be a grave sin against man

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and God.
What he was known for was that

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line about how the US
Constitution is a pact with that

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or a pact with the devil.
You know, there's different

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variations of it and that sounds
very radical in a certain sense,

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but it actually at that time was
kind of not because what it was

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arguing was that there's no way
that the law can be used to

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argue for the emancipation of
the slaves.

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And he also argued against any
political participation in the

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system in any way, shape or
form.

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So there was no point in voting
for anti slavery candidates or

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anything like that.
And on top of that, he argued

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pacifism.
And his pacifism, to be clear,

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was not so much directed at the
slaves.

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He didn't couldn't say much to
the slave because the slave

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isn't going to be reading his
newspaper, but it was directed

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to other white people.
So, you know, shortly after he

228
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,360
founded the Liberator, you had
the Nat Turner rebellion, which

229
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,040
was a rebellion led by Nat
Turner, a slave that resulted in

230
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,760
I think 50 some odd whites being
killed, including women and

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00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,720
children.
And it was a violent slave

232
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,400
uprising that was eventually
suppressed.

233
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,840
And he didn't condemn it or
anything like that.

234
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,160
But what he did is he pointed to
it and said if we don't abolish

235
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,240
slavery, more of this is going
to happen.

236
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,760
So that was Garrison.
His line was moral suasion.

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00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,680
And by definition, moral suasion
means you're trying to morally

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00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:59,240
sway the slave owner that
slavery is a sin and they he

239
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,520
should give up his slave.
And like I said, he sort of gave

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00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,120
birth to the abolitionist
movement.

241
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,640
But I also want to emphasize
there were abolitionists before

242
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,040
William Lloyd Garrison,
particular the Quakers, the.

243
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,800
Well known abolitionists like
Frederick Douglass and Harriet

244
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,880
Tubman, they live at a time with
John Brown and interacted with

245
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,200
him.
And I think reading their

246
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,920
accounts is really impactful.
Reading what Harriet Tubman said

247
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,480
about John Brown and her deep
respect for him.

248
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,720
And you know how Frederick
Douglass, his impact meeting

249
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,000
Brown and was like this man is
not for a moral suasion or he

250
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,200
knows that peaceful abolition is
not an option.

251
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,080
And Frederick Douglass really,
really admired that.

252
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,960
John Brown was for freedom for
everyone and for all the

253
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,080
oppressed.
It's super.

254
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:44,920
Cool that all these people were
contemporaries.

255
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:51,560
It's like very Ocean's 11.
Yeah, and John Brown was in awe,

256
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,640
in awe of Harriet Tubman, didn't
he?

257
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,640
Refer to her as a man out of
respect, he referred.

258
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,080
To her as the general.
The General.

259
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,600
Yeah, I.
Also saw that in his writings he

260
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,920
would refer to her as he and it
was because he respected her so

261
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,160
much.
And there was all these quotes

262
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,080
where he's like she's so smart,
she may as well be a man.

263
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,520
She's so tough, she may as well
be a man.

264
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,280
So it was almost like an
honoring.

265
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,960
He was absolutely in of her and
he would ask her because she was

266
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,200
in Canada at the time.
Because what people have to

267
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,440
understand about the Underground
Railroad, a lot of times the aim

268
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,680
was to get people to Canada.
Yeah, through the South and to

269
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,160
the north.
And because of slave hunters,

270
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,360
you were never really safe in
the north.

271
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,760
If you were not very famous or
not very well known, you know,

272
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,600
you could just be disappeared
one night.

273
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,440
And so the ultimate aim was to
get you to Canada where you

274
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,120
didn't have slavery.
And he met her there, I believe,

275
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,200
in Ontario.
And he was just absolutely in

276
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:51,080
awe of her.
I mean she.

277
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,680
Was an ultimate badass kind of
kind of hard night and he.

278
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,040
And he peppered, he would
peppered her with a lot of

279
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,160
questions about how she ran the
Underground Rd. how she rescued

280
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,400
all these slaves, because while
he was involved in the

281
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,920
Underground Railroad, he never
had the connections that she

282
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,200
had.
He never rescued anywhere near

283
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,160
as many slaves as she had.
And in terms of Frederick

284
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,440
Douglass, very close friend of
his, actually, like, families

285
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,000
would babysit each other's
children at times and deeply

286
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,440
respected him.
And we'll get back to this.

287
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,640
He wanted him desperately, as
well as Tubman, to be part of

288
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,320
the Harpers Ferry raid.
And in the case of Douglas,

289
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,200
Douglas explicitly said he was
not going to be part of it

290
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,440
because he thought it was
suicidal.

291
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,840
Yeah.
And we can talk and we'll get

292
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:36,800
back.
Yeah, we'll get back to that.

293
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,400
I mean, I think the main thing I
always think about is that in

294
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,200
that discussion that Frederick
Douglass had with John Brown

295
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,960
where he said taking over a
federal arsenal or whatever, you

296
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,440
know, doing the raid on Harpers
Ferry is going to be a steel

297
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,200
trap and it's going to be
suicidal.

298
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,320
But 25 years later, when he gave
his address in 1881, you know,

299
00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,920
this is after the Civil War.
He says explicitly, if John

300
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,000
Brown did not end the war that
ended slavery, he did at least

301
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,680
begin the war that ended
slavery.

302
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,880
And he and he made the point
that what John Brown really

303
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,520
represented was that the time
for, he says, the time for

304
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,880
compromises was gone.
The armed hosts of freedom stood

305
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,480
face to face over the chasm of a
broken Union, and the clash of

306
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,400
arms was at hand.
So he knew that this was the

307
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,240
opening shot basically into the
Civil War, and that if it

308
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,040
weren't for John Brown, then it
wouldn't have been so clear that

309
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,000
you needed an American
Revolution to overturn slavery.

310
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,120
There's another.
Abolitionist that I think should

311
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:40,720
be mentioned, which is Henry
Highland Garnett, OK, he was a

312
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,760
black radical abolitionist and
he's very interesting because

313
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,600
one of the things people should
understand is what after Douglas

314
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,480
escaped slavery, he was
initially under the sway of

315
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,640
Garrison and the Garrisonians.
And he was a Garrisonian until

316
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:57,840
he broke, I think in 184748.
And that actually led to a clash

317
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,520
between him and Garnett, who was
a black radical abolitionist.

318
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,200
And he was initially, in those
early years, an opponent of

319
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,560
within the abolitionist movement
of both Douglas and Garrison,

320
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,320
especially their advocacy of non
violence.

321
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,960
So he advocated for rebellion by
the slaves and the equivalent of

322
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,200
something like a general strike.
So there was an 1843 convention

323
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,920
where he gave a speech.
He's now speaking as though he's

324
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,160
speaking to the slaves in the
South.

325
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,920
From this moment, cease to labor
for tyrants who will not

326
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,920
remunerate you.
Let every slave throughout the

327
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,440
land do this, and the days of
slavery are numbered.

328
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,320
You cannot be more oppressed
than you have been.

329
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,000
You cannot suffer greater
cruelties than you have already.

330
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,120
Rather die free men than live to
be slaves.

331
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:53,920
Remember you are three millions
and garnet.

332
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,760
Then move to have this point
adopted at the convention in

333
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,480
1843.
This call essentially for some,

334
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,320
you know, withholding of Labor
or a strike by the slaves.

335
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,800
And Douglas actually defeated it
because he thought it went

336
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,600
against the non violence of the
Garrisonians because he was

337
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,440
still a Garrisonian at the time.
Now obviously Douglas will go on

338
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,680
to evolve and will break with
Garrison.

339
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,080
I'd like I said, I think 4748 is
when that break happens.

340
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,800
But he was another man Garnett
what that Brown really wanted at

341
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,720
the rate and he did not go to
the rate for the same reason

342
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,920
that Douglas didn't go.
It's suicidal.

343
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,080
Having said that, he said in the
aftermath of the raid, it is the

344
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,600
duty of every man who loved the
cause of freedom to declare that

345
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,080
the Harpers Ferry movement was
right, and that anyone who would

346
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,200
not say so boldly had much
better say nothing at all.

347
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,800
Oh.
So now, now he wants to say no,

348
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,120
no, no.
Let me defend Gardner and

349
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:59,160
Douglas for a second here.
This is the point actually that

350
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,640
you quoted earlier, Lola, from
Douglas about I'm willing to

351
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,920
live for the slave.
Brown was willing to die for the

352
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,120
slave.
There was sort of an

353
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:10,440
understanding that this suicidal
act.

354
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,080
Now, I mind you, Brown did not
see it as a suicidal act when he

355
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,160
was organizing it, but it that's
what it became.

356
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,240
And I think they were right
understanding that it was a

357
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,960
suicidal act.
Having said that, Brown was

358
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,520
right in understanding what it
would do.

359
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,920
In terms of sparking the Civil
War, this suicidal act was that

360
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,040
sort of the final spark that got
the Civil War going, certainly

361
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,600
speeded it up in terms of it
happening.

362
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,880
And that's actually one of the
another big difference between

363
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,200
someone like Garrison and
someone like Brown.

364
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,880
Garrison understood that unless
you abolish slavery, a civil war

365
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,880
was going to happen.
The difference is, Garrison,

366
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,840
it's kind of like his reaction
to the Nat Turner rebellion.

367
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,400
We need to abolish slavery or
else there will be a Civil war.

368
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,520
And he would use it as a
warning, something to be

369
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,440
dreaded.
Whereas Brown, Douglas and

370
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,960
Garnett were like, we need to
have the Civil War, we need to

371
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,280
make the Civil War happen.
And fundamentally, I think

372
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,520
that's what John Brown was
aiming to do with Harpers Ferry.

373
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,280
And if you look at his stuff
after he gets arrested, it

374
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,040
becomes absolutely clear that he
says explicitly, I'm better off

375
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,080
dead as a martyr to spark
something broader than alive.

376
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:25,200
Yeah.
And I.

377
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,400
Think for all this talk about
what Harpers Ferry was, that in

378
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,920
fact some of the details of the
raid itself are not that

379
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,600
critical to understand.
No, I.

380
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,040
Agree.
I agree there's no point in

381
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,800
going into like a blow by blow
account of it, right?

382
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,720
It's really about how he got to
this point and then what it

383
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,200
represented afterwards.
So let's talk a little bit about

384
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,240
the religious conviction that he
had because he believed that

385
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,640
owning slaves was contrary to
Christianity.

386
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,000
And of course when you're
talking about Christianity and

387
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,120
slavery, you have both wings,
the pro slavery wing and the

388
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:04,200
anti slavery wing.
Looking to the Bible to answer

389
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,320
the question of whether or not
slavery was morally right.

390
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,720
And there are plenty of passages
in the Bible that justify owning

391
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,040
a slave as property.
Openly supported that talk about

392
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,960
how slaves need to respect their
masters and obey him.

393
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,120
On the other hand, as you
mentioned, Ezra, abolitionists

394
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,120
were deeply religious and they
had their own interpretation of

395
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,400
scripture and they looked at
passages from the Bible that,

396
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,680
you know, denied hierarchy.
And so you could basically pro

397
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,320
slavery people could take a
passage and argue that God was a

398
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,360
fan of slavery and the
abolitionists could take a

399
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,400
different passage and argue the
opposite.

400
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,400
So can you talk a little bit
about how Calvinist Puritanism

401
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,960
played a role in John Brown's
outlook on slavery?

402
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,200
Sure.
One of the things to remember is

403
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,520
that people often treat the
Bible as a book.

404
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,360
The Bible is not a book.
The Bible is a series of

405
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,320
disparate little books that were
written over centuries, written

406
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,080
by completely different people
and written under completely

407
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,640
different circumstances,
spanning several 100 years, and

408
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,400
then stitched together and
redacted and edited.

409
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,640
And in the process you're going
to get a book full of

410
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,920
contradictions.
And so whatever you want to get

411
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,040
out of that book, you will get
out of that book.

412
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,120
Nowhere does the Bible say
explicitly, I challenge anyone

413
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,080
to show me a quote where it says
slavery is a sin.

414
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,360
It does not say that.
It does say treat your slave

415
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:32,040
well.
It does say in the Jubilee year

416
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,920
you should release your slaves.
It does say, you know the

417
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,160
Israelites should not take
slaves from the Israelites.

418
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,600
You should take slaves from
foreign nations or foreign

419
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,640
peoples.
But it does not say slavery is a

420
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,360
sin.
Having said that to people like

421
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,320
John Brown and Garrison and
others, there are certain

422
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,200
stories and there are certain
things that the Bible imbued

423
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,040
them with.
That line, do unto others as you

424
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,000
would have them do unto you was
something that John Brown

425
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,880
repeatedly came back to as as
did the Quakers and others.

426
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,960
You don't want to be a slave.
Don't enslave others.

427
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,600
Judge not, lest you be judged.
So that's from the New

428
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,000
Testament.
The story of Moses leading the

429
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,480
Israelites out of bondage in
Egypt played a huge part for and

430
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,200
still does actually in black
churches to someone like Nat

431
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,240
Turner, sort of was a massive
inspiration.

432
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,680
Not only because Moses led the
slaves out of bondage, but

433
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,080
because through the 10 plagues
that are in the Exodus story,

434
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,320
there was punishment, There was
an exaction of blood for the sin

435
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,120
of slavery.
Now, that's another thing that's

436
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:39,920
a theme in all of this, which is
blood.

437
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,920
This is a theme all over the
Bible.

438
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,360
Sin demands blood as a sacrifice
to purge the sin.

439
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,560
This is goes back to the Old
Testament and it's basically the

440
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,800
basis of Christianity, which is
the blood being the blood of

441
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,560
Christ.
You know, So to Garrison, to

442
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,400
Brown, to Nat Turner, to
Douglas, to all these people,

443
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,680
there had to be blood spilled.
So you started out by reading

444
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,520
that line from John Brown just
before he was getting executed.

445
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,560
I, John Brown, am now quite
certain that the crimes of this

446
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,720
guilty land will never be purged
away.

447
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,640
But with blood.
That was not a new revelation

448
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,040
for him.
What was new in some ways is the

449
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:25,360
second sentence of that note,
which says I had, as I now

450
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:30,720
think, vainly flattered myself
that without very much bloodshed

451
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,720
it might be done.
That was the realization.

452
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,400
Now, John Brown, even during his
lifetime, would often get

453
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,960
compared to somebody like Oliver
Cromwell, the Puritan leader of

454
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,120
the English Civil War and
Revolution, a century and a half

455
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:49,760
before or two centuries before.
Sorry.

456
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,440
And he.
Studied Oliver Cromwell, he

457
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,080
thought was like, oh, he.
Studied a lot.

458
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,400
Yes, he studied Oliver Cromwell.
He was compared to Oliver

459
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,200
Cromwell, including the
religious zeal for Brown.

460
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,840
One of the aspect of the
religious zeal is his Calvinism,

461
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,680
which was very stern.
And in Calvinism, you have this

462
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,400
concept called predestination,
that God elects a certain number

463
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,080
of people or group of people
that he's going to save, and

464
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,040
everyone else is everyone else.
And this is predestined.

465
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,680
So it's an incredibly bourgeois
religion in that sense.

466
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,680
And because part of how you
demonstrate that you are part of

467
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,960
the elect is God rewards
industry, frugality, hard work,

468
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,840
that kind of thing.
Someone like John Brock would

469
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,480
have nothing but contempt and
disdain for a whole class of

470
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,640
people who grew fat, rich, and
lazy off the unrequited labor of

471
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,960
a slave.
That is a grave, despicable sin.

472
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,560
And to these people in
Christianity in general, but to

473
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,040
John Brown specifically in his
Calvinism, like within the.

474
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,680
Values of Calvinism, yes.
He also this concept of

475
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,400
predestination, he sort of
applied not simply to the

476
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,520
afterlife, but to this life.
God gives you a fate now that

477
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,240
you are supposed to fulfill.
And I mentioned earlier that he

478
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,680
was an utter failure in all his
business dealings that only

479
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:19,520
solidified for him that his fate
was to be the undoer of the

480
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,080
slave.
He had a.

481
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:21,520
Path.
Yeah, that's.

482
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,760
And that's was that those
failures were God's way of

483
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,040
saying no, no, no, don't pay
attention to this stuff.

484
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,800
Pay attention to to the question
of slavery.

485
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,960
He was a very much a God of the
Old Testament.

486
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,760
There is once a story.
God's mean, huh?

487
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,600
Yeah.
God, whose justice was both

488
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,720
severe but righteous in his
view.

489
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,240
There's a story that I like.
I wish I could have been a

490
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,080
family in the wall where
Garrison and Brown meet each

491
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,480
other and they end up debating
for hours where Garrison is

492
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,680
throwing out quotes from the New
Testament and Brown is throwing

493
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,120
out quotes from the Old
Testament at each other.

494
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,280
One is, you know, defending
pacifism, and the other one is

495
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,680
defending the idea that you have
to take up arms against the

496
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,920
oppressor, everyone.
Knows now if Ezra were to pick

497
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,200
one moment in history to return
to, this would be it.

498
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,120
I would love to have to see it.
I don't know if it's my only

499
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:19,640
one, but so he very much saw
that Providence or a sort of God

500
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,120
as fate as having provided a
role for him in the destruction

501
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,880
of slavery.
And I mentioned this thing

502
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,400
earlier about John Brown seeing
sin demanding blood, but I want

503
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,600
to actually approach in a
different way.

504
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:39,960
That was his way of dressing up
his actual keen understanding of

505
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,440
American social dynamics.
I would argue he understood that

506
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,760
slavery would have to be smashed
with blood because a slave owner

507
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,240
cannot be persuaded to give up
an incredibly valuable piece of

508
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,480
property because that's not how
class relations work.

509
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,760
He understood that.
But the way he dressed it was it

510
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:04,240
is the purging of sin.
And so his keen understanding of

511
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,600
American Society was overlaid
with his religious outlook.

512
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,280
So yeah, religion was a massive
thing for Jon Brown.

513
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,080
I actually didn't know this
until I was reading about this,

514
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,240
but the Southern Baptists were
created in 1845, breaking from

515
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,360
the Northern Baptists to create
a wing that was Christian and

516
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,640
for slavery and not for
abolition.

517
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,360
So that was the origins of
Southern baptism, Yeah.

518
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,400
And I don't know that the
Northern Baptists were

519
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,560
abolitionists, but I don't know.
If they were abolitionists, they

520
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:36,480
were Northern.
They were.

521
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,960
Northern And so their view on
slavery was probably

522
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,240
indifference and that wasn't
good enough to the Southern

523
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,720
Baptists.
Yeah, you had to not not just

524
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,360
being different.
And this is reflecting a period

525
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,280
in American history.
We had a lot of revival

526
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,400
movements that were deeply
religious popping up all over

527
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,400
the country.
But you also something changed

528
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,160
with slavery.
By the time you get to the 30s

529
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,040
and 40s in America, if you go
back to the late 18th century or

530
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:06,040
the late 1700s, you have someone
like Thomas Jefferson talking

531
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,560
about slavery as though, as he
put it, unnecessary evil.

532
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,880
I think the line from his we
have the wolf by the by the

533
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,400
ears.
If we let it go, it will devour

534
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,360
us quite self.
Serving, of course.

535
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,120
It's very.
Self-serving, but there was a

536
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,640
sense of shame about slavery.
That's why, for example, the US

537
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,920
Constitution doesn't use the
word slave or slavery at all.

538
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,640
It has the three fifth
compromise.

539
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,240
It talks about unfree persons,
but an unfree person could be a

540
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,280
prisoner.
Doesn't have to be a slave, you

541
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,720
know.
And as an institution, slavery

542
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,640
was actually kind of weakening
by the time you get to the late

543
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,720
1800s.
And then you have the invention

544
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,120
of the cotton gin, and that
transformed everything.

545
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,600
That's where you get King
Cotton.

546
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,120
And then by the time you get to
the 1830s and 40s and beyond,

547
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,200
someone like John C Calhoun, who
was a Southern leader, was no

548
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,120
longer arguing that slavery was
a necessary evil.

549
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,960
He was arguing that it was a
positive good.

550
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:00,680
It was a positive good for
America.

551
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,840
It was a positive good for the
slave owner and it was a

552
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,160
positive good for the slave.
That was the argument.

553
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,640
And so the Southern Baptist,
their argument was it's no

554
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,840
longer good enough to be
indifferent to slavery.

555
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,040
You have to actually be pro
slavery.

556
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,520
What you were talking about in
terms of the 1830s, eighteen 40s

557
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,960
is kind of critical.
So just to go back, let's talk a

558
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,920
little bit about some of the
major events in history at this

559
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,760
time that did play a role in
John Brown.

560
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,200
So besides religion, what is
going on on the US terrain?

561
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,960
So starting with when he's 20
years old, you have the Missouri

562
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,400
Compromise, that's 1820.
You have a series of things

563
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,240
basically that show that like
what you were saying about the

564
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,960
cotton gin, that the country was
doubling down on bondage

565
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,000
basically, and was willing to
compromise in favor of the slave

566
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,920
states in 1850.
That was the Fugitive Slave Act.

567
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,160
And that was a really, really
big deal for John Brown.

568
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,320
He organized the League of the
Gileadites to write that was to.

569
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,640
Basically, beat back the
bloodhounds, the biped

570
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,320
bloodhounds, as Frederick
Douglass put it.

571
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,320
In some ways you can actually
start a little bit earlier

572
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,920
because the American Revolution.
And the only reason I mention is

573
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,680
because John Brown also held
very dearly the Declaration of

574
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,920
Independence, the concept all
men are created equal, endowed

575
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,200
by their Creator with certain
inalienable rights, that among

576
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,160
these are life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness.

577
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,840
And so he'd be quotes from here
where he'd say, you know, I I'm

578
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,520
against any institution that
violates the Bible and the

579
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,160
Declaration of Independence and
which slavery does I read?

580
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,360
Somewhere that his grandparents
were actually Revolutionary War

581
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,800
veterans, yes.
Yeah.

582
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,280
So, yeah.
So that's something.

583
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,800
Then the Missouri Compromise,
there was always this tension

584
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,320
between the North and the South
about the expansion of slavery,

585
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,640
slavery needed to expand.
Slavery as a system of

586
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,360
production is incredibly brutal
and vicious and murderous, but

587
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,360
it's also inefficient, very
inefficient and very thoughtless

588
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,320
and how the slave owners
organize it.

589
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,120
So slave agricultural production
destroyed the soil, like tired

590
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,960
out the soil, dried up the soil.
And so you need it constantly to

591
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,360
get the expand to basically
maintain the plantation

592
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,280
agricultural system under
slavery.

593
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,280
And So what the Missouri
Compromise did is it set the 36

594
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,960
parallel and said north of that,
no slavery.

595
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,920
South of that, we can talk about
it.

596
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,480
The Fugitive State Slave Act
1850, it's repercussions in the

597
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,080
North were monumental because it
made a lot of people who

598
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,200
couldn't, who actually didn't
care about slavery, care about

599
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,080
slavery.
What they were really offended

600
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,400
by is the idea that the Southern
aristocrats are now going to

601
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,000
treat Northerners.
This is the Northerners now

602
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,480
talking.
They're treating us like they

603
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,040
treat the slaves.
Basically, it turned the whole

604
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,640
of the United States, including
the North, into slave territory.

605
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:49,360
So if a slave escapes, it's not
only your duty not to interfere

606
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,640
with the bloodhounds.
By law you're now supposed to

607
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,200
actively try to capture that
slave and return him or her to

608
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,480
their so-called quote UN quote
owners.

609
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,560
Of course, as you can imagine,
in the course of that, lots of

610
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,360
free black people were also, it
wasn't just slave because it

611
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,320
was, it was basically slave
hunting going to the North.

612
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,040
So it really galvanized the
abolitionist movement, made the

613
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,679
abolitionist movement much more
popular than it used to be.

614
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:18,920
Just as an aside, I just, I
think it's just worth mentioning

615
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,000
that John Brown was never a
member of any abolitionist

616
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,000
movement.
This just should just be clear.

617
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,880
He was not a member of any
organization.

618
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,840
He was allied with certain
people, but he was sort of his

619
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,719
own man.
Just again, it's John Brown.

620
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,040
If we keep going
chronologically, the next big

621
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,159
thing is the Kansas, Nebraska
Act in 1854.

622
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:41,960
And it's really after that that
John Brown's name becomes known

623
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:43,440
nationally.
Yeah, that.

624
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:44,960
Was like the breaking point,
right?

625
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,159
He becomes a national figure
after the events that unfolded

626
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:50,880
in the wake of the Kansas,
Nebraska Act.

627
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,440
So these were two territories
that the US acquired acquired.

628
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,640
In quotes.
Yeah, in quotes from Native

629
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,840
Americans stole.
So yes, thank you for the

630
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,680
correction that territories that
the US stole from Native

631
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,120
Americans and in essence,
Congress voted to let them.

632
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,840
Decide to overturn.
The Missouri Compromise, because

633
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:17,560
what it said is, well, let each
territory decide if it wants to

634
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,280
join the Union as a Free State
or as a slave state.

635
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,360
And the reason it overturned the
Missouri Compromise is both

636
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,640
states were well to the north of
the 36th parallel.

637
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:32,480
By the Missouri Compromise,
neither state should be a slave

638
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,480
state.
The problem was you would then

639
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,200
have what's called an imbalance,
more free states than slave

640
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,240
state.
I mean, it was one of the

641
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,080
reasons why the Civil War was
inevitable.

642
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,480
It was a constant, exactly tug
of war between the two sides.

643
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,320
Everybody understood Nebraska
was not going to go to the

644
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:51,760
slave.
It was too far north.

645
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,480
But Kansas was a different
story.

646
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,800
It bordered Missouri, Kansas.
Was a swing state exactly.

647
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,600
It bordered Missouri, and the
Deep South can get to it through

648
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,560
Missouri.
So what happened was basically a

649
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,920
race of settlement.
And by the way, this is a

650
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,360
popular vote of just white men.
So what you had was a race of

651
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,240
settlement from pro a Free State
people, not necessarily pro

652
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,000
black people.
I want to make that really

653
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,840
clear.
And pro slavery people were

654
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,800
rushing to basically acquire
land and settle in Kansas so

655
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,440
they could outweigh the other in
terms of the vote.

656
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:34,840
And that eventually becomes
basically in microcosm the Civil

657
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,560
War, but played out on.
Kansas Terrain.

658
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,360
With a little bit into Missouri.
You might call it rigging

659
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,440
elections.
These days it was.

660
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,040
Rigging, Yes, there was actually
plenty of rigging of elections

661
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,960
by both sides, but it wasn't, it
was mainly that it was actually

662
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:52,400
physical fighting.
Yeah, it was.

663
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,800
I mean, it was actual.
Yeah, it was violent.

664
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,560
It was genuinely violent.
What?

665
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,680
State Do you guys think the new
civil war is going to kick off

666
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,040
in?
Texas.

667
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,280
Sorry, you can ignore that.
Illinois, I don't know.

668
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,000
I think Texas.
Texas, OK.

669
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,080
I think Texas is probably true I
feel like.

670
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,160
Maybe Colorado, we got some good
like purple, purple energy

671
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,200
there, I don't know.
I think a lot of guns.

672
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,000
I feel like it.
I feel like it would be one of

673
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,360
those states where either
there's a sharp division

674
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,560
racially, like Illinois with
Chicago or Texas, where it's

675
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,240
like, yeah.
Or maybe Austin will just secede

676
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:29,680
from Austin is.
Going to uprise.

677
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,480
OK, so we have a whole bunch of
these reactions.

678
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,440
There's one other thing three
years.

679
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,720
After the Kansas Nebraska Act in
1854, you have the Dred Scott

680
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:43,760
decision.
And I just want to mention that

681
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,360
that is a infamous US Supreme
Court decision.

682
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:52,080
Its bottom line is, as declared
by the Chief Justice Rodger B

683
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,960
Taney, no black man, slave or
free, could be a citizen of the

684
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,000
United States and that black
people had quote, no rights

685
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,320
which the white man was bound to
respect.

686
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,720
That was a Thunderbolt because
basically it rendered the three

687
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,000
blacks living in the North and
the three blacks living in the

688
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,440
South because there were three
blacks in the South non citizens

689
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,320
by official federal degree that
is.

690
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,280
The most famous part of the Dred
Scott decision, but combined

691
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,120
with that, you're talking about
giving constitutional protection

692
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,680
to slaveholders rights to human
property.

693
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,880
You're talking about banning
basically the prohibition of

694
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,520
slavery in any of the US
territories.

695
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,160
So I mean, it was just like
everything about it was the

696
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,520
government is fully aligned with
the slave system.

697
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,200
Like completely yes, it was a.
Total unadulterated victory by

698
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,760
the Southern slave owners.
And it's not an accident that

699
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,440
comes a few years after the
Fugitive Slave Act.

700
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,680
It was sort of the South
asserting its power over the

701
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,480
North.
It will bite back because the

702
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,400
North will go to war with the
South.

703
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,040
But there was a period where it
felt like the slave owners

704
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,640
basically not only had control
of the southern, southern United

705
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,680
States, but had control of the
whole of the United States,

706
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:05,160
right?
So.

707
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:06,640
Yeah, that paints a good
picture.

708
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,280
So you're looking at 1850, the
Fugitive Slave Act.

709
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,880
This is when Brown had a very
prominent role in the

710
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,680
Underground Railroad and was
organizing his group to resist

711
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,760
slave catchers and assist
runaways to escape to Canada.

712
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,440
You have Bleeding Kansas.
That's 1854.

713
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,360
That was when all the border
ruffians and the white settlers

714
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,360
were flooding into Kansas.
This is when John Brown, as Ezra

715
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,520
said, basically became a
national figure.

716
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,160
He first entered the scene and
organized armed resistance.

717
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,800
Two years after that you have
these attacks by Brown's group

718
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,200
that we didn't talk about yet.
But this is one year before Dred

719
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,440
Scott decision.
So you want to talk about the

720
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,680
Potawatomi killings So.
John Brown actually initially

721
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,920
was not planning on settling in
Kansas himself.

722
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,080
It was his sons.
People should know.

723
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,520
John Brown had some like 20
children or 21 I.

724
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,600
Think he had 20 and then 11
survived or something.

725
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,440
Was it something like?
That a bunch of his sons went to

726
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,600
settle in Kansas.
He didn't actually, but as his

727
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,960
business dealings kept failing,
he thought he would join them.

728
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,000
And he wasn't going there
actually to pick a fight

729
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,960
initially.
He was going there to just

730
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,640
settle.
The problem was as he was moving

731
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,440
about getting there and remember
it takes weeks and weeks to get

732
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,880
there because what
transportation was like, there's

733
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,120
no SU.
VS There's no.

734
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,840
SU VS No high speed rail?
Still no.

735
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,240
High speed rail and there's
still.

736
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:32,520
No high speed rail.
Yeah, we no problem isn't fixed

737
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,280
here.
He started getting letters from

738
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,440
his son, John Brown Junior,
saying bring guns.

739
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,680
It is really bad here.
The state of the Free Kansas

740
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,560
guys is desperate.
We're under constant attack.

741
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,920
Bring guns.
And that's when he gets there

742
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,400
with guns.
Now, there were constant

743
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,840
clashes, but a number of things
happened simultaneously that

744
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,000
sort of put him over the edge.
A small Free State town was

745
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,880
burnt down.
This had come on in the wake of

746
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,400
the murder of five or six Free
Staters in Kansas by pro slavery

747
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,920
guys.
And the same night or the next

748
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,320
night, after the town was burnt
down, news had reached John

749
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,800
Brown that abolitionist or
radical Republican Senator

750
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,040
Charles Sumner was beaten nearly
to death and the floor of the

751
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,960
Senate by a pro slavery senator
with a.

752
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,600
With a cane, Was it with a cane?
Yes.

753
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,960
With a.
Cane and he was so celebrated

754
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,840
for beating him with a cane that
southerners would be sending

755
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,320
extra canes to him because he
broke his cane on Charles

756
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,120
Summers head.
Wild, and this is what I was

757
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,320
saying about normalized violence
versus non normalized violence.

758
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,120
Like it was just normal for
people who were pro slavery to

759
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,400
be behaving like that.
So that just like falls out of

760
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:43,640
history.
We don't talk about that.

761
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,520
But John Brown being violent,
that's, that's extraordinary.

762
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,800
So, John.
Brown responded by organizing an

763
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,840
act of what I would call
revolutionary terror and I would

764
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,480
defend this act.
He went to Potawatomi with his

765
00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:01,480
posse and he basically rounded
up five men from their homes and

766
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,440
these were pro slavery men who
had been involved in the

767
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,560
fighting and hacked them to
death.

768
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,920
Or he didn't do the hacking
himself, but his men hacked them

769
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,360
to death as an act of terror.
He didn't harm the children, he

770
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,560
didn't harm the wives, didn't do
any of that.

771
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,640
It was a deliberate, like I
said, this was not just a

772
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,760
violence for violence sake.
It was a deliberate thought out

773
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,640
act in response to the brutal
violence of the pro slavery

774
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,120
guys.
And it was to send a message.

775
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,280
We're not putting up with this
and it was effective.

776
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,000
To this day, when people talk
about John Brown being a violent

777
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,800
fanatic, they talk about.
The pot of.

778
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:45,160
The Potawatomi killings and now
I just want to say again, five

779
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:50,320
men, pro slavery men killed in a
war situation as opposed to the

780
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,400
inhumane violence of the very
institution of slavery.

781
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,080
There's no question who is on
the right side of history, as he

782
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,160
put it himself.
I did not kill them, but I

783
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:06,040
approved of it.
I believe that I did God's

784
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,760
service and having them killed,
and I have no problem with that.

785
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,920
I think that's why when people
talk about John Brown and the

786
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,960
Potawatomi killings and they tie
it back to Nat Turner too,

787
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,160
because a lot of that debate is
around the Nat Turner rebellion,

788
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,920
right?
Like that Nat Turner spared no

789
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,000
white people, no white families,
children.

790
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,320
Children were going to grow up
to be slave owners and it was

791
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,800
the worst nightmare for the
slaveholding class, right?

792
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,040
And just a point about John
Brown not being a violent man.

793
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,840
In the course of Kansas, one of
his sons, Frederick, was

794
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,320
murdered by pro slavery people.
There was an episode where a

795
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,160
couple of years later, Brown and
his group were riding through

796
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,040
and they saw the person who
killed Frederick.

797
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:53,120
Yeah.
And one of the men says to

798
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,400
Brown, suppose you and I go down
and see the old man and have a

799
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,880
talk with him.
And Brown objected and said,

800
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,640
people mistake my object.
I would not hurt one hair on

801
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,720
White's head.
White being the guy who killed

802
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:08,680
Frederick, I would not go one
inch to take his life.

803
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,160
I do not harbor the feelings of
revenge.

804
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:16,960
I act from a principle.
My aim and object is to restore

805
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,360
human rights.
And Mr. White lived to see

806
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,800
another day.
If that was a violent man and he

807
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,760
saw a man who killed his son,
that man would be dead.

808
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,080
I would.
Have killed him so after

809
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,800
bleeding Kansas and after what
is it Potawatomi Potawatomi John

810
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,640
Brown has gained some national
notoriety how does he move

811
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,760
forward at this point like
what's the next step for the

812
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,840
movement well there's.
Arrest warrants, things like

813
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,160
that, but nothing ever happens
to him because he's just too, he

814
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:45,880
has too much of an he's too
wily.

815
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,880
He's out there hiding in the
mountains with his pet squirrel

816
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,440
sometimes.
He's out in the open, it's just

817
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,680
no one dares to arrest him
because he's got too much of A

818
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,400
popular following.
He's now raising money because

819
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:56,880
Bleeding Kansas is still
happening.

820
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,240
Kansas doesn't even become a
state until after the Civil War,

821
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:01,720
so this is just all still going
on.

822
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,680
He needs to raise money to get
guns.

823
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,840
He then approaches the Secret 6
The Secret Six were these six

824
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,160
wealthy benefactors,
industrialist, philanthropist,

825
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,800
preachers, reformers, doctors,
etcetera, that kind of liked

826
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,480
what John Brown was doing in
Kansas and started basically

827
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,080
funneling money to him so that
he could get arms.

828
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,880
Just to name them very quickly.
Franklin, Benjamin Sanborn,

829
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,840
George Luther Stearns, Garrett
Smith, Theodore Parker, Samuel

830
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,000
Gridley Howe and the most
Radical I think of the Secret 6

831
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,280
Thomas Wentworth Higginson
Shout.

832
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,880
Out Secret 6 now.
For most of them, they think

833
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,880
they're funding Kansas.
To some of them, he was saying

834
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,000
things like I have an operation
in mind, but he also didn't want

835
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,360
to tell them what the operation
was exactly.

836
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,000
Partly for plausible
deniability, also to protect

837
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,200
himself, because what if one of
them gets cold feet and then

838
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,120
turns them in?
So he's he's just saying I need

839
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,640
money for Kansas and I need
money for an operation.

840
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,560
Good military tactics.
You don't want to give away your

841
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,880
stuff.
And they were sending him money.

842
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,800
One of the things he organized
was besides getting guns and

843
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,600
revolvers and ammo, was actually
he thought about it.

844
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,200
If you're a slave and your whole
life have been a slave, you

845
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,000
don't know how to use a gun.
Remember, this is the time where

846
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,800
you had to load each gun, each
shot separately.

847
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:26,720
And it takes a lot of training
to do that.

848
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:32,200
So he got, I think 1000 Pikes
because he figured, well, you

849
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,440
don't really need any deep
training to use a Pike.

850
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,840
It's like a.
Stick with a dagger with a.

851
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,400
Bayonet at the end, basically.
And what he's planning is a raid

852
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,200
in Harpers Ferry, which was a
national US Armory in the state

853
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:51,640
of Virginia that he hoped would
spark a slave rebellion in

854
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,520
Virginia and more broadly.
And that at least enough of a

855
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,280
slave rebellion that he and his
men, including the escaped

856
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:03,040
slaves, would be able to go into
the woods and maintain a

857
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,640
situation of a sort of what he
saw at a provisional free

858
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,720
Republic and guerrilla warfare,
with the understanding that this

859
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:14,120
will soon plunge the whole of
the country into a civil war.

860
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,440
So yeah.
The idea is to go get all the

861
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,160
guns to arm the slaves because I
know that was also something

862
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,960
that was really fundamental to
John Brown belief is to arm

863
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,320
slaves because some
abolitionists obviously thought

864
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,440
that was terrible.
The.

865
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,240
Area was also mountainous.
So you can get trained in

866
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:33,080
guerrilla warfare, right?
Right.

867
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,560
And it's interesting because he
drafted A provisional

868
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:44,600
constitution and it was adopted
in May 1858 in Chatham, ON and

869
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,840
Canada.
This is when he was talking with

870
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,120
Harriet Tubman, trying to get
her to be part of the Harpers

871
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,400
Ferry raid, and Harriet Tubman
actually agreed to do it and oh,

872
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:54,160
she.
Was sick.

873
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,920
Got very ill and could not join
him.

874
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:02,520
But so it got adapted at this
Chatham Convention in Ontario,

875
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,480
Canada in May 1858.
And it's kind of worth reading

876
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,400
the preamble because it gives
you a sense of how John Brown

877
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,880
thought about these things, the
preamble to this Constitution

878
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,120
for what he saw as a provisional
free Republic, that he wanted to

879
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,880
get dissolved as soon as the US
gets rid of slavery, so he says.

880
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,120
Whereas slavery throughout its
existence in the United States

881
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:28,960
is none other than a most
barbarous, unprovoked and

882
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:34,200
unjustifiable war of 1 portion
of its citizens upon another

883
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,920
portion.
The only conditions of which are

884
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,080
perpetual imprisonment and
hopeless servitude or absolute

885
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:46,160
extermination in utter disregard
and violation of those eternal

886
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,000
and self-evident truths set
forth in our Declaration of

887
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,160
Independence.
Therefore, we citizens of the

888
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:58,360
United States and the oppressed,
who by a recent decision of the

889
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,160
Supreme Court, are declared to
have no right which the white

890
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,400
man is bound to respect,
together with all other people

891
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,920
degraded by the laws thereof, do
for the time being ordained and

892
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,640
established for ourselves the
following provisional

893
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,920
Constitution and Ordinances, the
better to protect our persons,

894
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:22,640
property, lives and liberties,
and to govern our actions.

895
00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,480
That was the preamble camera.
Snapping better than.

896
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,880
Our Constitution.
You saw him there.

897
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,280
He's referring he, he talks
about 1 portion of its citizens

898
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,680
upon another portion.
So he's he's clearly he's

899
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:38,440
talking about black people as
citizens of the United States.

900
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,320
He's referring obviously to the
Dred Scott decision.

901
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,560
He's referring to the
Declaration of Independence.

902
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,040
That's why I wanted to mention
that as a thing that weighed

903
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:47,880
down his mind.
I.

904
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,960
Just want to give a little color
to this because Ezra and I went

905
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:57,440
to Harpers Ferry and it's a
small town and now West Virginia

906
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,200
and you can see where kind of
how strategic it is in terms of

907
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,680
location and the rivers, the
Potomac and the Shenandoah

908
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,400
rivers and kind of the mountain
range.

909
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,400
It's very pretty.
You can see kind of the residual

910
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,520
elements of the federal arsenal
or you know, like the not very

911
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,120
much left kind of like a brick
building, very hilly town.

912
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:23,160
What I found so interesting
because people go there for John

913
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:28,480
Brown mostly, but if you go to
the gift shops in Harpers Ferry,

914
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:34,960
there are Confederate flags,
which I they don't really.

915
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,640
Understand their tourism
audience, huh.

916
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:38,320
Do you?
Remember this Ezra?

917
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:39,840
Do you remember how shocked I
do?

918
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,200
I do, I do, I yeah.
I mean, in some way I, I know at

919
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,080
the time I was shocked.
But in in America, that kind of

920
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,120
makes unfortunately makes some
sense because.

921
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,920
Because people.
Also do hate tourism of John

922
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,600
Brown because there are people
who still celebrate his

923
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,280
execution.
Yeah, and there are people who

924
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,400
go there and they're like, oh,
wasn't that cute?

925
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,160
That was cute.
So the raid itself, let's talk a

926
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,040
little bit about the raid
because it was poorly planned,

927
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,320
wasn't.
Part of it that, like we

928
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,200
mentioned Harriet Tubman before,
getting sick and pulling out

929
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,720
wasn't a huge part of the plan.
Harriet Tubman kind of inciting

930
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:19,400
local slaves to join the
rebellion as it was happening

931
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,640
he.
Wanted well known black figures

932
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:27,040
there because he thought that
would help to spread rebellion.

933
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:32,080
But like I said, Douglas and
others wouldn't go and Tubman

934
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,560
ended up not being able to go.
There were others, white guys

935
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,080
who had promised to join him who
did not.

936
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,920
So by the end of the day, he had
a choice to make.

937
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,840
He had a, you know, a total of
22 men, including himself.

938
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,000
Such a.
Tiny amount of people for such a

939
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,880
grand idea, right?
And so it becomes a question

940
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,480
now, do you just call it off?
That's a possibility.

941
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,320
Some of the guns didn't make
their way to him.

942
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,840
You know, it was, you could say
it was poorly planned or it was

943
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:11,000
a, a confluence of just messy
circumstances happening and in a

944
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,440
sense that he felt, he felt kind
of let down.

945
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,640
There's no question about that.
So do you proceed with it in

946
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:23,200
what is now clearly a suicide
mission or do you pack up shop

947
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,480
and go home?
And he decided that he wants to

948
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,440
proceed with it because he
believed even in failure, that

949
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,560
it would do much to eliminate
slavery.

950
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:38,360
One of the interesting things
they found once he was captured,

951
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,000
they raided the cabin where he
and his men were staying, was a

952
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:46,000
thing that he titled Vindication
of the Invasion.

953
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,200
And it's written in the past
tense as though you.

954
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,360
I think he realized by that
point that it was going to fail,

955
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,120
and it was.
So it's written in a way that as

956
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,160
though he's justifying what he's
with the Harpers Ferry raid, but

957
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,720
as though it's already failed
and so he's justifying it.

958
00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:06,920
So he gives 4 reasons to
justify, as he calls it, the

959
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,840
invasion.
First, it was in accordance with

960
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,560
my settled policy.
Second, it was intended as a

961
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,760
blow at slavery.
Third, it was calculated to

962
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,680
lessen the value of slaves.
And finally, it was over and

963
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,960
above all others, right.
I think that the whole thing is

964
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,920
when people talk about Harper's
Ferry raid as failed and you

965
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:36,200
know, the result being that ten
of his supporters died, six of

966
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,760
them were captured and and hung
John Brown himself obviously,

967
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:42,800
and four.
Escaped SO.

968
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,600
Militarily, it was a failure.
But in terms of it, the reason

969
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:53,800
why I think we still talk about
it here as a success is because

970
00:53:54,800 --> 00:54:01,600
it made it clear that talk of a
uprising was not just rhetoric

971
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,440
and, and also the way the South
interpreted it.

972
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,200
The South interpreted it as they
had to secede because otherwise

973
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:14,080
it wasn't safe for them.
And one thing I wanted to point

974
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,920
out which I find really
interesting is, of course, in

975
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,280
terms of the sequence of this,
what's really important is this

976
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:27,440
is 1859.
The Civil War starts 1861.

977
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,120
You're talking a year and a half
really after the Harpers Ferry

978
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,680
raid.
So it really was the opening

979
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,000
shot and the Civil War erupted
right after that.

980
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,600
And regardless of what views
people had right after Harpers

981
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,720
Ferry, regardless of what views
people had about it being a

982
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:51,040
military failure, within a month
between like him being captured

983
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:56,520
and him being executed, John
Brown, he was transformed into

984
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,880
this prophetic hero.
You know, there was there, yes,

985
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,200
there were still people called
him a brutal terrorist and stuff

986
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,280
like that.
The abolitionist paper The

987
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,480
Liberator was not favorable to
John Brown or the the raid on

988
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,640
Harpers Ferry.
But for many of the other

989
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,640
abolitionists, it really did
embolden them.

990
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,760
They saw him as a hero, and then
he got a lot of national

991
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,760
attention and sympathy.
And I think that's really,

992
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,200
really kind of important also in
terms of the the political

993
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,600
turning point.
Yeah, you have to also get the

994
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,360
other side.
He was also vilified massively.

995
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,760
I mean, that was that's part of
why it sparked a civil war,

996
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:38,240
because it did exactly what he
wanted it to do.

997
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:41,160
Which is it?
It called the question and

998
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,760
divided the country.
So in that sense, it was a

999
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:48,480
stunning political success.
The South went hysterical,

1000
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,680
ballistic.
So John Brown was not actually

1001
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,640
tried by the US government.
He was tried by the state of

1002
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:57,600
Virginia.
The state of Virginia would not

1003
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,560
allow him to go be tried in a
federal government because they

1004
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,600
were worried about Northern
influence, that it might

1005
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:08,320
actually result in him somehow
not being executed, even though

1006
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,760
he would have been.
So he was tried for treason

1007
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,360
against the state and for
inciting survival insurrection,

1008
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,720
but for treason against the
state of Virginia.

1009
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:18,280
And as he pointed out, well, I'm
not a citizen of the state of

1010
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,280
Virginia, so how is this treason
against it?

1011
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,120
But it didn't matter what the
legalities were.

1012
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,520
He was, he was a dead man and he
knew that and everybody knew

1013
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,680
that.
And the hysterics were such that

1014
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,520
suddenly every Southerner and
every Southern newspaper and

1015
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,920
every Southern politician saw
the specter of Nat Turner again.

1016
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,520
And what they did is they
basically saw that every

1017
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,120
Republican.
Now you have to remember at the

1018
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,240
time, the Republican Party.
The Republican.

1019
00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:50,600
Party was a newly founded party
at the time.

1020
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,840
It was what's called a Free
Labor, Free Soil Party.

1021
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,080
They were not abolitionists, but
they were opposed to the

1022
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,800
expansion of slavery.
They included Radical

1023
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,040
Republicans who were
abolitionists, but they also

1024
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,280
included conservative
Republicans who just didn't want

1025
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,040
slavery expanded and thought
black people were inferior.

1026
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,280
And all all the ugly racism that
you can imagine the.

1027
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,480
Democrats were the Southern and.
The Democrats were, so that was

1028
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,560
the Republicans.
The Democrats were an

1029
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,560
interesting party because they
were really two parties fused

1030
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,520
together in the South.
They were the party of the

1031
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,200
Southern slivocracy in the
North.

1032
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,600
They were apologists for slavery
in the South, defenders of

1033
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,000
slavery in the South.
And I want to emphasize that

1034
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,720
because it's going to come back
later, but a lot of what they

1035
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,760
tended to sort of draw in terms
of their popular base were more

1036
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,840
sort of disgruntled Catholic
voters, the Irish immigrants and

1037
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:50,560
so on, and played the race card
very heavily by pitting Irish,

1038
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,960
newly arrived Irish immigrants
against black people, so.

1039
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,440
Both.
Sections North and South were

1040
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,000
thoroughly, thoroughly
unadulterated open races in a in

1041
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:09,680
a way that like I guess mega.
So that was that was the

1042
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:14,120
political lay of the land.
And so the southern slobaccracy

1043
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,480
were screaming that every every
Republican they would call the

1044
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,400
Republicans the black
Republicans.

1045
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,160
That was that was what the name
that they that they referred to

1046
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:23,840
the Republicans that.
Was like an insult, huh?

1047
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,920
Yeah, of course, yeah.
And that and that and that,

1048
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,960
John, and that the Republicans
were breeding John Brown's

1049
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,400
everywhere and that John Brown
was going to breed Nat Turner's

1050
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:34,160
everywhere.
Yeah.

1051
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,200
So he.
Became the boogeyman of the of

1052
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:39,240
the Democratic Party.
Yeah, I mean, and, and and it

1053
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,840
was like weeks and weeks
afterwards they were still in

1054
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,000
hysterics.
They were like patrols all over

1055
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,040
the South in fear of a slave
rebellion.

1056
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:51,680
More than that, if you go to the
1860 presidential election where

1057
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,960
Nick Lincoln wins and then the
Civil War basically is declared

1058
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,200
in April shortly after his
inauguration, the only reason

1059
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,960
Lincoln was able to win was
because the Democratic Party

1060
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,000
split.
It split into two parties and

1061
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,080
ran 2 separate candidates.
And the reason it's split, if

1062
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,480
you look at the convention where
the Democratic Party split, the

1063
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,040
Southern Democrats were
basically demanding that the

1064
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,600
Northern Democrats not just
defend slavery in the South, but

1065
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:21,960
defense the expansion of slavery
into the West and even according

1066
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,920
to some of them, into the back
into the North.

1067
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,200
And this Northern Democrats were
like, we can't do that.

1068
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:30,280
It's political suicide for us to
do that.

1069
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:32,760
And so they said, well, if
you're not going to fall in

1070
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,080
line, we're going to run our own
candidate and you guys can run

1071
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,920
your own candidate.
And so the Democratic Party

1072
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,640
split into two.
And that that's what allowed

1073
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,360
Lincoln to win.
If you look at the convention

1074
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:49,040
debate, the, the name John Brown
repeatedly comes up that this

1075
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:54,080
was all a hysterical reaction by
the South to John Brown's raid.

1076
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,960
This was the the you know, the
North basically you have to do

1077
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,640
this because the North is
gearing up to slaughter us to

1078
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:06,040
rape our women to you know,
incites are violent surrection

1079
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:10,440
all this, you know, all the most
vile racist things you can

1080
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:15,040
imagine, and it was all
triggered by this raid.

1081
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,040
So without.
Splitting that vote, then

1082
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:18,960
Lincoln wouldn't even have
become president.

1083
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:20,400
I don't.
Think so.

1084
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,000
No, I don't think he would have.
And I mean, I still think the

1085
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,480
civil war would have eventually
happened, but it it would have

1086
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,760
been delayed.
But this it did exactly what

1087
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,600
John Brown wanted, which was
sparked that civil war that

1088
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,760
would end slavery.
One of the things that we were

1089
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:40,560
looking at last night was a
absolutely incredible speech

1090
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:45,840
given by Henry David Thoreau on
October 30th, 1859.

1091
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:47,840
So this was after Harper's Ferry
raid.

1092
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,800
Sorry to interrupt.
But Harper's raid is between

1093
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:55,200
October 16th and 18th, 1859.
So this is about, what, 10 days

1094
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,480
later or 12 days later?
Please go on.

1095
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,480
Because it was one of the
earliest public defense of John

1096
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:02,200
Brown.
Yeah.

1097
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,280
And.
It was, I can't even pretend to

1098
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,920
do it justice.
I would recommend just Googling

1099
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,680
A Plea for Captain John Brown by
Henry David Thoreau and and

1100
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,120
reading it yourself, because
it's a it's a masterful polemic,

1101
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:17,960
and particularly a masterful
polemic against the newspapers

1102
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:22,040
at the time that were vilifying
John Brown and against everyone

1103
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:25,400
in the American social system
and fellow abolitionists as

1104
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,960
well.
And one of the lines is just

1105
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,720
absolutely beautiful.
And it shows the intersection in

1106
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,000
the transcendentalist movement
and among others, the influence

1107
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:37,760
that John Brown had after this
raid.

1108
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:43,240
He says such do not know, and
he's talking about the kind of

1109
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:45,480
the main the mainstream
newspapers or whatever.

1110
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,120
Such do not know.
That like the seed is the fruit,

1111
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,480
and that in the moral world,
when good seed is planted, good

1112
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:56,360
fruit is inevitable and does not
depend on our watering and

1113
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,240
cultivating.
That when you plant or bury a

1114
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,880
hero in his field, a crop of
heroes is sure to spring up.

1115
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,840
This is a seed of such force and
vitality that it does not ask

1116
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:12,960
our leave to germinate.
It's just absolutely incredible.

1117
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:18,760
Now I have to mention this
because every book you read

1118
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,160
about John Brown will mention
and everybody who opposes John

1119
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,600
Brown will mention it.
The fact that the idea, sorry,

1120
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:30,040
the idea that he was insane,
unfortunately the birth of that

1121
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,000
idea comes from some of his
supporters, initially came from

1122
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:37,040
his court appointed lawyer,
which John Brown shot down

1123
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,560
immediately to plead.
Insanity.

1124
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:41,280
So that his life would be
spared.

1125
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:45,240
Then it came from some of his
supporters in Ohio who started

1126
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,880
spreading around this idea and
this rumor that he was mentally

1127
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:53,360
insane and refer to supposed
family members in the past that

1128
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,480
were insane or were not insane,
but anyway that they claimed

1129
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:58,160
were insane.
There was nothing.

1130
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,600
I don't even want to give it
much time except to mention that

1131
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:04,720
he rejected this.
He was not insane.

1132
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,160
He was actually very rational
and very thoughtful in what he

1133
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,360
did.
And I want to read his.

1134
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:17,280
So he's, he's tried before the
court and he gives essentially a

1135
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:21,560
sort of last will or his
statement to the court.

1136
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,400
And I think it's worth reading
because it shows who John Brown

1137
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:31,160
is and his way of thinking.
So he says, had I interfered in

1138
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:35,240
the manner which I admit and
which I admit has been fairly

1139
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:39,440
proved, for I admire the
truthfulness and candor of the

1140
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:43,280
greater portion of the witnesses
who have testified in this case.

1141
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:49,680
Had I so interfered in behalf of
the rich, the powerful, the

1142
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,480
intelligent, the so-called
great, or in behalf of their

1143
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,960
friends, either father, mother,
brother, sister, wife, or

1144
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:01,600
children, or any of that class,
and suffered and sacrificed what

1145
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,800
I have in this interference, it
would have been all right.

1146
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:10,440
Every man in this court would
have deemed it an act of reward

1147
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:14,400
rather than punishment.
I believe that to have

1148
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:18,760
interfered as I have done, as I
have always freely admitted I

1149
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:23,680
have done in behalf of his
despised poor, was not wrong.

1150
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:28,000
But right now it is deemed
necessary that I should forfeit

1151
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:32,480
my life for the furtherance of
the ends of justice, and mingle

1152
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:36,120
my blood further with the blood
of my children, and with the

1153
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,760
blood of millions in this slave
country, whose rights are

1154
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:44,720
disregarded by wicked, cruel,
and unjust enactments.

1155
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,640
I submit, so let it be done.
Does not.

1156
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:50,480
Sound like the words of a madman
to me.

1157
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:54,840
Higginson from the Secret 6/1 of
the things you have to know is a

1158
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:57,560
number of people in the Secret 6
once it was found out who they

1159
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:01,640
were because honestly John Brown
didn't hide his papers very

1160
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,040
well.
So when they raided the cabin

1161
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:05,760
they saw these letters from the
Secret 6.

1162
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:11,200
So some of them like went crazy,
disavowed John Brown.

1163
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,520
Higginson didn't.
And actually, Higginson would go

1164
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,640
on to become an officer in the
Civil War and organize one of

1165
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,120
the first black regiments, the
first South Carolina volunteers

1166
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,280
made-up of former slaves from
the Sea Islands.

1167
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,360
And he published a book that is
very much worth reading called

1168
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:32,120
Army Life in a Black Regiment.
So that's just a recommendation.

1169
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:36,880
Anyway, he, Higginson tried to
organize an escape posse for

1170
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:40,000
John Brown, and John Brown told
them to go away.

1171
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:41,680
Really.
That yes.

1172
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:47,040
That he is perfectly fine to be
executed because it is God's

1173
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:52,480
will, and that he is worth I am,
I am worth inconceivably more to

1174
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,720
hang than for any other purpose.
Gosh, she had.

1175
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,920
Such good self-awareness and
like big thinking so.

1176
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:04,840
There's symbolism in the Harpers
Ferry raid that ties John Brown

1177
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,840
directly to the main actors of
the Civil War.

1178
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,440
And I don't think that's an
accident that officers to whom

1179
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:15,320
John Brown surrendered himself
once the raid failed and he was

1180
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,520
captured were Robert E Lee and
JB Stewart or Jeff Stewart, who

1181
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,760
would go on to become celebrated
officers of the Confederate

1182
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,200
Army.
There's a figure named Edwin

1183
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,320
Ruffin.
Edwin Ruffin was a fanatical

1184
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,640
slave owner, pro slavery and
slave owner.

1185
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:35,720
He went to watch John Brown's
execution to enjoy watching it.

1186
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:40,440
Edwin Ruffin is reputed to have
fired the first shot at Fort

1187
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,280
Sumner Sumter and that launched
the Civil War.

1188
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:48,920
There's a great line from WEB Du
Bois in Black Reconstruction in

1189
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:50,960
America that's kind of imprinted
in my brain.

1190
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:56,360
When Edwin Ruffin, white haired
and mad, fired the first shot at

1191
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,160
Fort Sumter, he freed the
slaves.

1192
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,600
Yeah, this.
Will be on my tombstone.

1193
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:08,360
Of course Karl Marx was right,
but Karl Marx also at the time

1194
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:15,320
knew that John Brown's death was
a signal that the conflict that

1195
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:19,040
was to come in the United States
had entered A revolutionary

1196
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,880
phase, and that was what the
Civil War was, was the second

1197
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:26,160
American Revolution.
The legacy of John Brown, I

1198
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:31,200
think became more popularized in
the 1960s and 70s.

1199
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:37,040
Since 1970, you have kind of
this outpouring of biographies

1200
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,720
and scholarly studies and works
of fiction even that are about

1201
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:43,560
John Brown, which we can talk
about some of them that exist.

1202
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:48,480
I think it's interesting that he
started to become more popular

1203
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,680
in the 1960s.
And I know one of the people who

1204
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:55,440
popularized him was Malcolm X
and so on that point about

1205
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,120
whether or not John Brown was a
madman or a fanatic.

1206
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,640
Malcolm X has this really,
really great quote about him.

1207
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,280
And he says, you know what John
Brown did?

1208
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:08,640
He went to war.
He was a white man who went to

1209
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,000
war against white people to help
free slaves.

1210
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,280
He wasn't nonviolent.
White people called John Brown a

1211
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,160
nut.
Go read the history.

1212
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,000
Go read all of them say about
John Brown.

1213
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,000
They're trying to make it look
like he was a nut, a fanatic.

1214
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:25,120
But they depict him in this
image because he was willing to

1215
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:28,640
shed blood to free the slaves.
And any white man who is ready

1216
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,520
and willing to shed blood for
your freedom in the sight of

1217
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:35,200
other whites, he's nuts.
As long as he wants to come up

1218
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,600
with some nonviolent action,
they go for that.

1219
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:41,040
If he's liberal and nonviolent
liberal, a love everybody

1220
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:42,640
liberal.
But when it comes time for

1221
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,200
making the same kind of
contribution for your and my

1222
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,040
freedom that was necessary for
them to make for their own

1223
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,200
freedom, they back out of the
situation.

1224
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,479
So when you want to know good
white folks in history where

1225
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,279
black people are concerned, go
read the history of John Brown.

1226
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:00,359
Yeah, that's a great quote for
Malcolm, and I want to just make

1227
01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:03,120
a point about John Brown, the
violent fanatic nut.

1228
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,120
He's a surrogate.
Let's be clear about this.

1229
01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:09,800
When they say this idea of
violence is bad, they're not

1230
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,600
talking about John Brown
violence.

1231
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,000
They're talking about the idea
of the slave taking up arms to

1232
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,279
defend himself is bad.
They're talking about the idea

1233
01:09:18,279 --> 01:09:22,560
of the modern oppressed taking
up arms to defend themselves and

1234
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,319
fighting for their freedom is
wrong and deranged and insane or

1235
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:28,920
madman fanatical, whatever word
you want to use for it.

1236
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:33,200
John Brown is a surrogate for
attacking the black, the

1237
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,680
oppressed, the downtrodden in
this country.

1238
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:38,479
Well, we.
We talked a little bit about at

1239
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:42,460
the beginning about listening to
people say he was quote, UN

1240
01:09:42,460 --> 01:09:48,640
quote, problematic and some of
the military shortcomings that

1241
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,680
he had and some of his the
errors, some of his

1242
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:57,120
inflexibility, his anger, his
religiosity and his zeal.

1243
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:01,680
What should we understand in
terms of some of his

1244
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:07,520
shortcomings in the context of
this time and the revolutionary

1245
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:09,600
struggle that he believed was
necessary?

1246
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:13,040
If I were to have one real
criticism of John Brown, it

1247
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:16,240
would be this.
He underestimated the brutal

1248
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:22,880
impact of slavery on the slave.
So Brown studied things like the

1249
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,280
Spartacus slave uprising in
ancient Rome, the Haitian

1250
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:30,840
Revolution, Nat Turner's
rebellion, the Maroon wars in

1251
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,280
Jamaica, and other guerrilla at
tactics.

1252
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:35,240
He studied the English Civil
War, like we talked about

1253
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,520
earlier.
He said Napoleon, but

1254
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:40,840
specifically these slave
uprisings, all with the aim of

1255
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:45,080
trying to figure out how to
spark a slave revolution akin to

1256
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,320
those in the United States.
And I think what he missed is

1257
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:53,640
that in all of these situations,
the spark came from within the

1258
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,840
slaves themselves.
Spartacus was a slave.

1259
01:10:57,640 --> 01:10:59,960
The Haitian Revolution was
sparked by slaves.

1260
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:04,680
The Maruan Wars, all of these
were sparked by the slaves

1261
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:08,800
themselves.
It would be incredibly difficult

1262
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:15,520
to conceive of slaves because of
a raid by, let's say, not 22 was

1263
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:19,240
not his obviously his intended
#22 men, Let's say double,

1264
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:24,200
triple, quadruple that.
That you're going to take your

1265
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:29,600
life into your hands and
actually rise up in rebellion on

1266
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,880
the belief that this small band
of radical revolutionaries,

1267
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:37,520
we're going to somehow eliminate
slavery.

1268
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,240
It's very hard to conceive of
the slave doing that because

1269
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:45,080
these enslaved people were
deeply intelligent and deeply

1270
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:47,760
understood what the
repercussions of this would be.

1271
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:51,280
Everything to lose, yeah.
And and, and not just

1272
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,040
themselves.
It's not just that you would get

1273
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,480
killed.
Your wife, your children, your

1274
01:11:55,480 --> 01:11:58,960
whole family.
So I think that would be my one

1275
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:03,480
criticism if you actually look
at how it happened, when what

1276
01:12:03,480 --> 01:12:07,000
Dubois would later describe as
the general strike during the

1277
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:11,480
Civil War really occurred when
you had the Union Army winning

1278
01:12:11,480 --> 01:12:13,880
some victories and going into
the South.

1279
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,520
And that's when the former
slaves abandoned the

1280
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:21,640
plantations, joined the rear of
the army and in some cases

1281
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:23,600
became volunteers in the
military.

1282
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:25,080
Eventually, once they let them
in.

1283
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:29,000
But that was because there was a
whole army marching through the

1284
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,800
South.
It doesn't, you know, it doesn't

1285
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:35,000
just happen.
Slavery is a brutal and

1286
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:38,400
brutalizing institution.
If you look at history, it's not

1287
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,320
very often that you have slave
rebellions because they usually

1288
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:45,520
end in a lot of bloodshed for
the slave.

1289
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,680
Having said all that, his act
did spark the war that ended

1290
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:53,680
slavery.
If John Brown was a guerrilla

1291
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,920
fighter, then Benjamin Lay was
guerrilla theatre.

1292
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,720
So while we were preparing for
this episode about John Brown

1293
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:09,120
the abolitionist, one of our
devoted listeners mentioned a

1294
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:11,320
Quaker, Benjamin Lay.
And I didn't really know much

1295
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:13,400
about him.
And I had the pleasure of

1296
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,680
researching him for this show,
and I learned so much good

1297
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:18,280
stuff.
Yeah.

1298
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:22,480
So before, like you say, the
formal abolitionist movement,

1299
01:13:22,480 --> 01:13:25,280
there were outliers.
And one of the most notable

1300
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:27,960
outliers is a man named Benjamin
Lay.

1301
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:31,120
And he was a Quaker.
The Quakers are famously

1302
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:33,840
involved in the abolitionist
movement, involved in the

1303
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:36,920
Underground Railroad.
But Benjamin Lay is born about

1304
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:40,440
100 years before John Brown.
So super progressive.

1305
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:42,560
He's born in England.
He's a dwarf.

1306
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,320
He's about four feet tall.
But let me tell you, even that 4

1307
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:48,240
feet, this guy stands on
business, he puts his tiny

1308
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:50,120
little feet right on that
business.

1309
01:13:50,440 --> 01:13:53,960
So he becomes a sailor.
And this is where he starts like

1310
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,000
kind of getting an idea about
what's happening with slavery.

1311
01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:00,760
So he sees the horrors of the
slave trade as a sailor, not

1312
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,440
personally, just like hearing
the stories about how horribly

1313
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:06,600
people are treated.
And he moves to Barbados for a

1314
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,960
little while with his wife.
And in Barbados at the time,

1315
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:12,400
there is like a huge slave
economy there.

1316
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,640
It's like 10 slaves for every 1
white person.

1317
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,600
So while he's there, he's
running a little store and he's

1318
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:23,000
seeing the damages of slavery.
He's seeing that people are

1319
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,000
maimed and starved for
punishment.

1320
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:28,440
He's seeing women and children
being overworked to exhaustion.

1321
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:32,280
He sees overseers openly
carrying instruments of torture.

1322
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:35,400
And he's super horrified by it.
So this is where Benjamin Lay

1323
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:37,760
starts speaking out against
slave owners.

1324
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:41,040
So at Quaker meetings in the
Barbados, he started to denounce

1325
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:43,120
slave owners And like, not just
in general.

1326
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:45,520
He would call people out at
meetings by name.

1327
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:47,880
So he'd be like, Jim is a slave
owner.

1328
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:50,520
Jim sucks.
He's disgusting.

1329
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,040
So he's like super, super
outspoken.

1330
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:55,560
This is revolutionary ideas at
the time.

1331
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:59,200
Like, even these people who are
devout religious people and are

1332
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,680
pacifists see no problem with
slavery.

1333
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:03,800
And so there's Benjamin Lay
fighting against them.

1334
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:07,640
So eventually, Benjamin Lay and
his wife decide they do not want

1335
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:10,640
to be in Barbados.
They're disgusted by the slave

1336
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:13,080
culture there.
So they move back to England for

1337
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:15,200
a while, and then they end up in
Philadelphia.

1338
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:18,760
And like I said, this is before
the Underground Railroad

1339
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:21,800
started, which is around the
1780s, I think is when it starts

1340
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:24,680
to emerge.
And Benjamin Lay is going to

1341
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,880
these meetings and he's speaking
out against Quaker slave masters

1342
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,200
because there are Quaker slave
masters at this point still.

1343
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:35,960
So like if John Brown is the
Batman of abolition, Benjamin

1344
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,360
Lay is like a performance artist
of abolition.

1345
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:41,120
Like he's just really trying to
get everybody's attention in

1346
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,000
really big ways.
And the way Quaker meetings are

1347
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:47,160
set up is there's not a formal
priest or somebody who's

1348
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:49,680
formally in charge.
You kind of just speak as the

1349
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,440
spirit moves you.
So he becomes this rabble rouser

1350
01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:55,840
that, like, everybody hates.
And he is what they say.

1351
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:58,640
They quote the most disowned
Quaker in history.

1352
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,320
So he just is like, constantly
getting kicked out of meetings

1353
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:03,480
because he's like, calling
people out and telling them

1354
01:16:03,480 --> 01:16:04,960
they're shitty.
And everybody's just like, Oh my

1355
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:08,800
God, Benjamin, please shut up.
And in one meeting, he famously

1356
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,160
gets kicked out on a rainy day.
And he just lies in front of the

1357
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:15,480
stairs in the mud so that
everybody has to step over him

1358
01:16:15,480 --> 01:16:18,720
on their way out of church and
like, confront him directly as

1359
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,880
he yells at them.
So then he starts like kind of

1360
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:24,440
making these demonstrations a
regular thing.

1361
01:16:24,440 --> 01:16:27,080
And he does this thing where he
stands outside of the church

1362
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:29,880
with no shoes or no socks in the
middle of the winter in the

1363
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:31,480
snow.
And as people come in, they're

1364
01:16:31,480 --> 01:16:34,120
like, Benjamin, like, why aren't
you wearing any shoes?

1365
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:36,280
You're going to get sick.
And he's like, this is how you

1366
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:37,840
treat your slaves.
And you don't give a shit when

1367
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:39,480
the slaves don't have any shoes
on.

1368
01:16:39,480 --> 01:16:41,880
And he's just like constantly
getting into arguments with

1369
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:43,120
people.
This just.

1370
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:46,960
Reminds me of like, you know,
when you're a leftist in this

1371
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:49,440
world and it's like everyone
hates you, but it's like that

1372
01:16:49,440 --> 01:16:51,760
means you're just doing the
right thing if everyone hates

1373
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:54,200
you, that's probably the early
philosophy.

1374
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:58,480
And.
Full disclosure, I I didn't know

1375
01:16:58,480 --> 01:17:02,000
anything about Benjamin Lay
until one of our devoted

1376
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,880
listeners and a friend of mine
told us about him and said that

1377
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,600
he was one of his heroes.
So thank you for sharing that

1378
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:11,880
information and for allowing us
to share some of Benjamin Lay's

1379
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:13,920
stories in the abolitionist
movement.

1380
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:16,880
So.
Yeah, he's full of juicy, fiery

1381
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:18,960
stories.
He's a really colorful guy.

1382
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,240
He also wrote a book denouncing
slavery, and I tried to read

1383
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:24,120
some of it, but it's honestly
kind of a mess.

1384
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:26,840
And you can tell me.
Listen to the title of this

1385
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:29,640
book.
All slave keepers that keep the

1386
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:34,200
innocent in bondage apostates
pretending to lay claim to the

1387
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:38,440
pure and holy Christian religion
of what congression so ever, but

1388
01:17:38,440 --> 01:17:41,800
especially in their ministers.
This is the title of the book.

1389
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:43,640
And that's like kind of how the
book reads.

1390
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,480
It sounds catchy.
It's just it's just the best.

1391
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:49,080
And then these are my two
favorite Benjamin Lay

1392
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:51,480
demonstrations.
One of them is he kidnapped his

1393
01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:55,080
neighbor's daughter and he just
like let her go crazy for a

1394
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,120
while trying to figure out where
her daughter was.

1395
01:17:57,120 --> 01:17:59,960
And then when he bought her
back, he was like, oh, you know

1396
01:17:59,960 --> 01:18:02,000
that slave girl you have in your
kitchen?

1397
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:04,920
That's how her mom feels when
she doesn't know what's

1398
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:08,840
happening with her daughter.
Damn, so so.

1399
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:11,760
Some light kidnapping and then
like this is the the most

1400
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:17,520
elaborate 1 is this 1738 Bible
protest that he did He got all

1401
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,800
dressed up in like this military
outfit.

1402
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,640
This is already spicy because
you know Quakers are pacifist at

1403
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:24,840
this time.
So he gets this military outfit.

1404
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:27,760
He hollowed out a Bible like,
you know when you're like trying

1405
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,080
to break out of prison and you
hide things in a book so he

1406
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:33,240
hollowed out a Bible and he put
a little bladder of poke Berry

1407
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:35,600
juice in it and then poke Berry
juice is like super, super red

1408
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:37,440
right.
And then he has that hidden in

1409
01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:39,560
there.
He put a sword on, he wore like

1410
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:43,320
this big overcoat and he goes
into the meeting and then like,

1411
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:46,360
you know, everybody's speaking
and he stands up also.

1412
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:49,040
He placed himself like right
next to the top dogs, the most

1413
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:53,360
slavey of the slavers.
And then he like stands up, and

1414
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:58,680
he says, O all you Negro masters
who are contentedly holding your

1415
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,920
fellow creatures in a state of
slavery during life, well,

1416
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:04,640
knowing the cruel suffering
those innocent captives

1417
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:09,840
undergrow, especially you who
professed to do unto all men as

1418
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:14,320
ye would they should do unto
you, you might as well throw off

1419
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,240
your plain coats as I do.
And then he dramatically throws

1420
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,280
off his coat and reveals that
he's wearing a military outfit.

1421
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:23,000
Everybody's like, what the hell?
And he has a sword.

1422
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:26,240
And then he pulls out the sword
and he stabs through the Bible

1423
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:28,720
and like, blood starts
splattering and that's not even

1424
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:30,960
enough.
He like, takes the blood and

1425
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:34,080
like, even like sprays it.
He like on to the slaveholders

1426
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:37,560
to kind of distinguish them.
And he tells them, thus shall

1427
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:41,280
God shed the blood of those
persons who enslave their fellow

1428
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:43,920
creatures.
So I'm I'm sure he was also

1429
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:48,040
disowned from this meeting.
But yeah, he was just like,

1430
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:50,960
really, really convinced that
this was true.

1431
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:53,160
And he was willing to put his
skin on the line in the same way

1432
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:55,440
John Brown was.
You know, he was being pushed

1433
01:19:55,440 --> 01:19:59,560
out of the community.
He was being kind of estranged

1434
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:03,080
from his religious peers.
But he knew what he had to do.

1435
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:05,240
And he, like, really lived on
his word.

1436
01:20:05,480 --> 01:20:08,280
So one of the cool things about
him is that he really lived

1437
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:11,360
aligned with his values.
So he didn't use any goods that

1438
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,120
were, like, the product of slave
labor.

1439
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,440
So no tobacco, no sugar, no tea,
no rum.

1440
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:18,920
He used to make all of his own
fabric because he didn't want

1441
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:21,360
fabric that was connected to
cotton picking.

1442
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:24,640
In the US, he was also a
vegetarian.

1443
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:27,880
He was like really sympathetic
to animals, nearly a vegan.

1444
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,920
I think the only thing that he
consumed from animals was honey.

1445
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:34,400
And he didn't ride a horse, so
he would just walk everywhere.

1446
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:37,600
The Bible demonstration I just
told you about, there's all

1447
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,240
these accounts that he walked
like 20 miles or 30 miles to get

1448
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:42,480
there.
And considering the fact that

1449
01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:46,960
he's a dwarf, he is sacrificing
and making his life inconvenient

1450
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:51,200
to stand on his principles.
And he just keeps being shunned

1451
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:53,960
and pushed out of his society.
And he eventually moves into a

1452
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:57,600
cave with his wife, just kind of
like, lives off the grid with

1453
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:00,160
his vegan life.
Like, yeah, the most progressive

1454
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:03,400
man in the night, the 1700s for
sure.

1455
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:06,920
Yeah, that's what everyone says
when they learn about John

1456
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,560
Brown.
They're like, oh, he was so woke

1457
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:11,920
from the time.
Yeah, so so.

1458
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:13,800
Definitely.
He was different than John Brown

1459
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,080
because he was also never
violent.

1460
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:18,880
He didn't believe in violence,
but religion was the source of

1461
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:20,480
his conviction.
He stood.

1462
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:23,680
He wasn't afraid to be estranged
from his religious peers and

1463
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,080
just kind of have his own
interpretation of the Bible.

1464
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:29,040
And he was willing to
fundamentally change his life to

1465
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:34,040
make sure that he was living in
a way that aligned with his

1466
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:35,600
beliefs.
Yeah.

1467
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:39,000
That was good background on
Benjamin Lay in terms of the

1468
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:42,480
legacy of John Brown.
We can't finish this episode

1469
01:21:42,480 --> 01:21:44,760
without listening to John
Brown's Body.

1470
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:51,160
When I first heard the song John
Brown's Body, I thought that it

1471
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:55,480
was taking off of the song The
Battle Hymn of the Republic.

1472
01:21:55,480 --> 01:22:00,320
I thought, oh, someone later in
life, I actually thought it was

1473
01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:04,960
like in the 1900s had created
the song from the Battle Hymn of

1474
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:08,680
the Republic as a kind of homage
to John Brown or whatever.

1475
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:12,880
What I didn't realize is that
the Battle Hymn of the Republic

1476
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:18,960
of 1861 is a variation came from
John Brown's body, which was

1477
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:23,200
originated in 1861 as a Union
Army marching song.

1478
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:27,800
Ezra told me this last night
that originally it was because

1479
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:32,680
there was a Massachusetts
soldier named John Brown.

1480
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:36,480
He was a Sergeant John Brown.
And his troop was it.

1481
01:22:36,480 --> 01:22:39,240
His troop used to joke about it.
Yeah, it.

1482
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:43,520
Was other members in his
battalion would jokingly go

1483
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:47,800
around singing John Brown's body
Liza Muldering in the grave as

1484
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:49,840
though he's dead even though
he's pretty much alive.

1485
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:53,400
He's a guy, Scottish background
has no relationship to that John

1486
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:55,640
Brown.
But they but they were just

1487
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:59,480
making fun of him and they were
using a tune that most people

1488
01:22:59,480 --> 01:23:02,400
now recognize as the Bethlehem
of the Republic that had been

1489
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:07,320
popularized as a hymn in the
1830s, I believe, or 40s as part

1490
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,320
of the great revival movement,
religious revival movement.

1491
01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:13,000
Yeah.
So it was, it was a Methodist

1492
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:15,720
hymn from say, Brothers Will You
Meet Us?

1493
01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:19,200
And then they started to use it,
turned it into a song for John

1494
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:21,560
Brown's body.
And then eventually as.

1495
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:25,840
A way to make fun of the guy.
And then it just became.

1496
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:29,240
Kind of the rallying cry, like
it became abolition.

1497
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:30,800
It suddenly took a.
Serious turn.

1498
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,320
And it just became a hymn in
honor of John Brown.

1499
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:36,320
And so when the Battle Hymn of
the Republic is written by Julia

1500
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:40,400
Ward Howe, she's she's actually
taking off from John Brown's

1501
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:42,520
body.
And if you look at the lyrics,

1502
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:46,320
it's clearly talking about the
Civil War and the fight for

1503
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:48,840
freedom.
And just as a little aside,

1504
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:54,080
she's the wife of one of the
Secret 6 and and was actually a

1505
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:58,080
very good friend of John Brown
and visited him while he was in

1506
01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:00,640
prison.
Am I the only one that when you

1507
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,560
hear Secret 6 it makes you think
of Fast and Furious for some

1508
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:10,600
reason?
That's the conclusion of our

1509
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:12,480
episode commemorating John
Brown.

1510
01:24:12,480 --> 01:24:15,920
As always, you can reach us at
unwashedunruly@gmail.com.

1511
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:17,520
Please follow us, rate and
review.

1512
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:21,840
And to close off, here's John
Brown's Body by Paul Robeson.

1513
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:28,320
Should I start singing now?
Brown's body lies a mold ring

1514
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:30,000
in.
The Gray get ready.

1515
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:33,000
For a motherfucking banger.
Y'all this call John Brown's

1516
01:24:33,000 --> 01:25:04,580
body?
Glory, glory, Hallelujah, glory,

1517
01:25:04,660 --> 01:25:06,220
glory, Hallelujah, glory,
Hallelujah.

1518
01:25:10,620 --> 01:25:17,620
In his soul goes lighting on,
on, on.

1519
01:25:17,620 --> 01:25:22,900
Brown body lies are moving.
In the grave, John Brown body

1520
01:25:22,900 --> 01:25:28,800
lies are moving.
John Brown's body lies alone in

1521
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,160
the grave.
His soul goes marching on.

1522
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:54,920
The stars above in heaven now
are looking kindly down.

1523
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:59,160
The stars above in heaven now
are looking kindly down.

1524
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:04,280
The stars above in heaven now
are looking kindly down on the

1525
01:26:04,280 --> 01:26:22,920
grave of old John from.
This soul goes Marty on the Lord

1526
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:31,400
of glory, Hallelujah, the Lord
glory, Hallelujah, the Lord

1527
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:39,760
glory, Hallelujah.
The soul goes Marty gone.

1528
01:26:39,760 --> 01:26:49,000
Glory, glory, Hallelujah, glory,
glory.