Monopoly Capitalism Is Killing Journalism with Hamilton Nolan

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It's time for you and me to
stand up for ourselves.

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Welcome to Unwashed and Unruly,
where we read the fine print so

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you don't have to.
Today we're talking about

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monopoly capitalism and the
destruction of American

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journalism.
I'm your host Lola Michaels,

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joined by Ezra Saeed.
Hi, Lola.

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Hi, everybody.
And Cam Cruz.

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Hey, guys.
And today, we're very happy to

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have Hamilton Nolan on our show.
Hamilton is a longtime

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journalist, a writer on labor
and politics, a union organizer

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and activist.
He runs the website

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howthingsworkwhichyoucanfind@hamiltonnolan.com.
His new book is called The

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Hammer, Power, Inequality and
the Struggle for the Soul of

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Labor.
Really excited to talk to you,

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Hamilton, and get your insight.
Thank you for joining us.

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Thank you for having me, happy
to be here.

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It all started with print
journalism.

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Newspapers collapsed, newsrooms
were gutted, and journalists

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were laid off in mass.
Out of that wreckage, digital

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media rose with new outlets and
voices, a promise that the

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Internet would save us.
But that heyday disappeared as

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private equity firms and tech
monopolies quickly took over.

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Online media advertising revenue
stopped paying the bills.

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Traffic to publication websites
was controlled by Google search

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and social platforms.
Now, AI scrapes everything

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journalists write and summarizes
it, preventing readers from

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clicking through.
A small number of monopolies and

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media conglomerates determine
what can be said, how

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information is found, and
whether it's seen at all.

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Today, layoffs of journalists
come every few months like

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clockwork, while Big Tech and
media billionaires consolidate

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power, propaganda and profit.
Workers are the collateral

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damage.
When people say this is the end

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of the Internet, it's not that
we stopped consuming content

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online.
What's ending is the illusion

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that journalism, real
journalism, can survive monopoly

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capitalism and the digital media
apocalypse.

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That's why this matters.
We're so happy to have you,

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Hamilton.
I know you recently returned

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from Minneapolis reporting on
the general strike and which is,

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of course, is very relevant.
And I'm sure you have tidbits to

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add throughout this episode,
some of which touch on what

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we're talking about today, how
people consume content and how

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the mainstream media acts as the
stenographers for Washington and

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a lot of the polarization.
To start off, I just wanted to

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give a little picture and
background of your story and

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rewind to what we might call the
golden age of online media

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ranging from the mid aughts to
the early twenty 10's.

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And this is when you were
working for the news and gossip

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site Gawker, right?
That's right, I started working

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at Gawker in 2008, and I worked
there until 2016, when it got

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blown up and bankrupted by our
friend Peter Thiel.

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And that's like a really
interesting story, but it's kind

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of like when you started there.
I mean, besides taking place

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during the Great Recession, it
was kind of on the up for

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digital media.
And I would say maybe even the

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Wild West in a good way.
Like there was a lot of room for

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creativity and openness.
And then in 2015, you guys were

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the first digital media site to
unionize, which you played a

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leadership role in.
And like you said, in 2016, like

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within one year, Gawker is sold
off and leads to the graveyard.

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And the reason why I want to
start with that chronology, and

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I know there's a lot missing, is
just because I feel like it kind

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of symbolizes what has happened
to online media over the last 10

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years.
Yeah, it was a fast golden age

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for sure, and you know it.
I guess it never feels like the

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golden age while you're in the
middle of it, because all we did

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was complain all the time.
But now looking back it, it

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definitely was the golden age of
the digital media era for

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whatever, for whatever that will
be worth, like in the history

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books of media, which is
probably going to be a short

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little entry.
But yeah, I mean, when I started

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there 2008 and probably, you
know, Cocker was still a bit

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small and marginal at that
point.

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But over the next 5-6, seven
years, yeah, the digital media

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industry was very much on the
rise and was viewed as the

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replacement for the, the print
media industry that that had

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been the dominant, you know,
form of journalism for the last

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100 years.
The conventional wisdom at that

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time was like, everything's
going to digital media.

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A lot of money poured into the
industry, you know, so, so we

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got to experience that brief
period when all the investment

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money was coming into the
industry instead of going out of

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the industry, which is what
we're experiencing now,

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obviously.
I remember 1 Christmas party at

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Gawker Media, they just had like
a tower of crab legs and like a

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huge bowl of macarons that was
like the size of the and you're

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just like, wow, this is
somebody's making some money

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around here.
So yeah, it was a it was an

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interesting experience to the
rise in the fall and kind of

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taught me that is the nature of
media.

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So maybe it's an important
lesson for all of us in media to

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learn like the good times never
last.

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Well, I feel like a lot of us
are seeing the fall right now,

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so yours was pretty early on.
Can you talk a little bit about

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what led to that?
Yeah, we were.

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Gaga was pretty successful,
independently owned, you know,

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essentially independent media
company was profitable, had a

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good readership base.
We did unionize the company in

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2015 because I think a lot of us
realized that, you know, you

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start to get the inklings that
the good times are not going to

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last and that was one of the
motivations.

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We can talk about that more
later, but what essentially

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happened to Gawker Media was we
as a company covered all type.

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We had, you know, a number of
sites, 10 different sites or

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something that we covered all
types of things.

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One of the things we covered was
Silicon Valley or the site

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called Valley Wag, and Valley
Wag made fun of Peter Thiel.

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A number of times also reported
that Peter Thiel was gay, which

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was kind of an open secret in
Silicon Valley, but maybe not in

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among the general public.
So Peter Thiel hated Gawker

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Media along with many, many
other rich and powerful people

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hated Gawker Media.
But Peter Thiel took $10 million

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and gave it to a law firm and
said sue this company out of

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business.
And so around, you know, those

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later years, the mid 2010
stalker started to get a lot of

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frivolous lawsuits being filed
against it.

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And, you know, we found out
later that literally this law

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firm was systematically
approaching everybody that

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Gawker Media had written
negative stories about, which

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was a huge number of people.
Wow.

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It's so funny.
So you guys just made too many

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enemies on the street by talking
shit?

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Yeah, basically.
Yes, basically yes and they

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continually filed these
lawsuits, most of which got

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dismissed because it's obviously
not illegal to write a negative

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story.
That's true about people.

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But but eventually they found
Hulk Hogan, who was a pro

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wrestler who who Gawker had
published a portion of a sex

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tape that I.
Remember this?

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Yeah, I remember.
This the Hulk Hogan sex tape.

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And they went to Florida, my
home state find state of Florida

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got a Florida jury and sued us
in the state of Florida.

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And we're like these New York
communists hate everything good.

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And Hulk Hogan won a verdict of
of like $140 million against us

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from a Florida jury.
Wow.

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And our lawyers were pretty
confident that that was would

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get overturned on appeal.
But the issue was that in

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Florida, you have to post.
We would have had to post a bond

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of like $50 million in order to
appeal the case.

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And Gawker Media couldn't do
that.

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And so we just went bankrupt and
got sold to to Univision.

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And Gawker itself was shut down.
So that's the that's the short

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story of how it went.
I had no idea that Peter Thiel

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was wrapped up in all of that.
Yeah, it was it was all Peter

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Thiel.
And, you know, it was funny

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because as we were being sued by
all these lawsuits, Nick Denton,

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who was the owner of Gawker
Media, was like he kept being

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like, you know, I think
somebody's behind this.

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And, and like when I heard him
say, I thought, I thought he was

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like talking.
He was like talking about the

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Loch Ness Monster or something.
You're like, sure.

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You know, yeah, there's a big
conspiracy out there to sue us.

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And then we found out there
actually was Peter Thiel was

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secretly behind it all.
And, and his role came out at

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the very end after we were dead,
basically.

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How did you learn about Thiel's
involvement?

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You know, it's, I forget who
broke that story, but it got

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reported out eventually.
I mean, there were a lot of

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rumors.
And you know, Nick Denton

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himself was very kind of, I
mean, he was he was a gossip

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guy.
That was his thing.

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So he was very well sourced, I
think, in that world.

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And so he had like an inkling of
it and maybe helped to track it

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down.
Eventually a guy I think got

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reported in the New York Times.
And when it got reported, then

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Peter Thiel came out and was
like, Oh, yeah, I'm proud of

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this, you know, But he hadn't
made that public that he he was

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doing that until it ultimately
came out.

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And, you know, he tried to pose
as a champion of privacy rights

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or, you know, whatever you want
to say.

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But the fact is, like, Valley
Wag had made fun of him and he

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got pissed off.
And he was a billionaire, so he

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suited out of existence.
Yeah.

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And I think it just kind of
points to how big tech and big

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tech billionaires have played
such a role in the decline that

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we're seeing.
I mean, you're talking about

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back then, but I think the the
biggest player in digital media

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is Google when you talk about
big tech.

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And so when you're in the
industry, from what I've heard

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is that everyone talks about the
Google gods because Google

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determines everything.
And in the past, in that golden

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age that we've talked about, the
arrangement was like publishers

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would create content, Google
would send them traffic in

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exchange for indexing it.
So, you know, you, you search

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something on Google, you get
sent to a website, that article

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written by a human journalist is
considered important in some

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way, and the publication
collects some sort of revenue.

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At that time, Google was still
controlling ranking and

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visibility and access.
So of course, if your site

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appeared very low on the search
engine results page, no one's

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going to really Scroll down.
So early on, you know, Google

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had this massive control over
like what content is being seen

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and how publishers could
compete.

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Now you have, I mean, it's way
beyond that, right?

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Google answers your questions
directly.

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You get featured snippets, you
get AI overviews.

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So it's like instant
gratification.

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Google's answering your
questions, it's recommending

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products, it's summarizing news.
So there's no more incentive at

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all to visit a site, and so
publishers aren't getting any of

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that traffic right.
Yeah.

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I mean, yes, that's exactly
right.

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And it's kind of a quandary at
the heart of the entire, you

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know, journalism industry
worldwide, really.

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I was going to say in America,
but really this is a global

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issue.
I mean, when I talk to like

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regular people about why
journalism is collapsing, people

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who don't work in in the media
industry.

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And, you know, I think there is
a widespread sort of awareness

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in the general public that the
journalism industry is on the

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decline.
You know, people who are over a

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certain age remember the
newspaper age and remember local

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newspapers being thriving.
And now they're not, you know,

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And so like, there is like that
level of awareness where regular

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people everywhere are like, what
what's happening here?

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And usually I just tell people,
like, the short version is, you

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know, the tech industry figured
out how to stick a straw into

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the middle of the media industry
and suck out all the money

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without producing any of the
journalism, Which, you know,

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it's kind of a neat trick on one
level.

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I guess you got to hand it to
them that they figured out how

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to take all the money out of the
industry without doing any of

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the work.
And obviously, you know, the

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problem is that journalism is
not just another industry.

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Journalism is like, a vital
component of a healthy

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democracy.
And so we're not just talking

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about some business story of
creative destruction and, oh,

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00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,240
tech platforms have figured out
how to optimize, you know, ad

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revenue.
The problem is who's paying for

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the journalism?
Nobody.

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You know, the media companies
traditionally paid to do the

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journalism.
The the journalism brought the

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audience and they sold ads
against that.

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And that was the economic model
that produced journalism in

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America for over 100 years, You
know, and it worked very well.

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I mean, in the newspaper age,
newspapers were spectacularly

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00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,920
profitable.
They were essentially local

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advertising monopolies, and they
made huge profit margins.

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And that's why, you know, the
Baltimore Sun could have a

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00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,120
foreign Bureau in Paris.
I mean, there was, it was, it

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was, it was a monopoly story to
some extent even in that age.

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00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,520
But there was a good side
effect, which was it produced a

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lot of journalism.
Now we have an even more

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sophisticated monopoly story on
the business side that produces

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00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,240
0 journalism.
And that is why all of the

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people like me and all my other
colleagues and in digital media

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00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,240
who 10 years ago were enjoying
the good years are all getting

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laid off now or have already
been laid off.

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Because all those companies
which thought that they could

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support themselves as digital
media companies by selling ads

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found out that no, you know,
Google and, and Facebook also

253
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,760
and, and other big tech
platforms figured out how to

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make the ad money for themself.
So it's a big problem.

255
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,680
And you know, the entire
journalism industry, like

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00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:04,960
including everybody who actually
wants to do journalism, which is

257
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not the tech companies, you
know, they don't give a shit

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about journalism at all.
They, they just want the ad

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00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,400
revenue.
They're kind of, they're kind of

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agnostic on what they're selling
ads against.

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But America, the democracy needs
journalism and also the public

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00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,720
wants journalism.
You know, people want somebody

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00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,880
in your town going to cover the
City Council meetings.

264
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,440
I mean, that is like they and
they want somebody going to

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00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,880
cover the high school football
games and the volleyball games

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and like the potholes in the
street.

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I mean, people want journalism.
The demand for journalism has

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not changed, I think, but the
economic model has been totally

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smashed by these tech companies.
And that's kind of, I mean,

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00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,600
there's obviously a lot more
nuance to the story, but that's

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kind of where we are.
I feel like as a country and as

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00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,680
a journalism industry and
everything that's happening

273
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,800
these days in journalism is sort
of people testing out different

274
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,240
models to see if we can figure
out something sustainable enough

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to continue producing journalism
that's not selling ads against.

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00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,080
Yeah.
You mentioned ad revenue, and

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that was the big thing, is that
the idea was that ads would

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appear on the pages that people
visited or the websites that

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people visited.
So publishers were like, oh,

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00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,440
we're going to get these ads
just like the newspapers did,

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but advertising didn't follow
the content.

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00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,360
You know, these tech companies
like you mentioned Google and

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00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,200
Meta, particularly through all
their data collection of

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00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,880
everything that we search for,
knew how to monetize that and

285
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,320
capitalize on that by using
targeted ads.

286
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,400
So now all the digital ad
revenue goes to Google and Meta

287
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,640
basically.
Yeah, right.

288
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,120
As you say, like all the media
companies kind of outsource

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00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,760
their traffic to these huge tech
platforms.

290
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,120
They're like, we will get our
traffic from Google, we'll get

291
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,840
our traffic from Facebook,
rather than saying we'll build

292
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,520
that for ourselves.
And and by doing that, they made

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00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,160
themselves fall prey to the
whims of these big tech

294
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:04,760
companies.
And there's kind of like a

295
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,080
famous episode at one point
where Facebook decided one year

296
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,800
that we're all about video.
Facebook was like, we're about

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00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,560
video now.
Everything is video.

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00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,320
And so all the media companies,
all the online media companies

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00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,840
were like, we're all about video
now.

300
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,520
They laid people off.
They hired entire video teams.

301
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,920
You know, Gawker Media hired all
these people.

302
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,360
They built video sets.
They had all these video shows

303
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,840
and they did that for like a
year or maybe 2 years.

304
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,720
And then Facebook changed their
mind.

305
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,040
Facebook was like, actually,
we're not about that anymore.

306
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,840
We're not, we're not doing these
live videos.

307
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,960
We're done with that.
And everybody got laid off.

308
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,640
And it was just like, you know,
if you're the journalist, you're

309
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,200
like, what are we doing here,
man?

310
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,680
We're just like following around
these big tech platforms like

311
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,160
dogs.
And it destroys, it destroys the

312
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,000
lives of and careers of
journalists, which I guess is

313
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,240
you may not care about as a
member of the general public.

314
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:04,280
But it also is a horrible way to
kind of build a sustainable

315
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:07,920
journalism industry that's going
to produce the kind of stories

316
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,839
that people want to see A. 100%
And you mentioned like their

317
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:15,520
rules or their ideas changing
and it has it's like always

318
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,160
chasing the algorithm.
So Google in particular will set

319
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,079
these, it has this dictatorial
control and they will just

320
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,920
change their algorithm model.
All of a sudden, there's no

321
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,360
transparency to it.
And you know, so suddenly

322
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,160
they'll say, oh, we're going to
prioritize this type of content

323
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,040
or we're going to de prioritize
this kind of content.

324
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,160
And they do it overnight.
And then all the publishers are

325
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,760
like, Oh my God, we have to
catch up.

326
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,440
And you know, then it's like
this reactive guesswork.

327
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,280
Yeah, it's really kind of
absurd.

328
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,360
And it like introduces this
entire like field of, you know,

329
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,640
for a long time it was SEO,
right, Search, search engine

330
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,400
optimization, because all the
traffic was coming from Google.

331
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,960
So it's like, you know, we're
not just here finding out facts

332
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,080
about the world and writing a
story or doing a good package of

333
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,240
journalism.
There's this whole other thing

334
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:13,360
that we also have to do, which
is like, how do we game the most

335
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:16,840
current version of the
algorithm, this black box?

336
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,800
How do we, like, try to peer
into the black box and determine

337
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,560
what's going to get us the
highest ranking?

338
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,760
And like, when you think about
that some years removed from it,

339
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,760
you're like, it's, it is all a
big sideshow, right?

340
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,960
It has nothing to do with
journalism, and it has nothing

341
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,720
to do with giving readers better
stories.

342
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,600
You know, it actually gave
readers shittier stories.

343
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,600
Because.
That's the kind of.

344
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,600
Thing it's degrading quality.
Exactly.

345
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,040
It's just, oh, we don't need to
do investigative journalism or

346
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,600
local reporting.
We just want to like make it

347
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,520
click baity.
Right, exactly like click bait,

348
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:56,080
which is what readers complained
about, is 100% a product of news

349
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,480
organizations chasing that
algorithm.

350
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,880
You know, when I was at Gawker,
it was like the curiosity gap

351
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,360
headlines they were called,
which is like this famous person

352
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:08,840
did XYZ, like designing
headlines that don't actually

353
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,600
they tell you anything so that
you have to click the story,

354
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,800
right?
Which is actually a worse

355
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,920
headline.
It actually made headlines

356
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,640
worse.
A headline should tell you what

357
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,160
is in the story, but instead it
evolved to not tell you what's

358
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,200
in the story to make you click
in order to produce traffic.

359
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,680
So, you know, it's just an
example of the technology

360
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,600
actually degrading the practice
of journalism, which is what

361
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,520
we're supposed to be here for in
the 1st.

362
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:33,880
Place.
One of the things that's

363
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,400
interesting about this too, is
going back to the Stone Age

364
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,920
during the age of print
journalism, before the rise of

365
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,600
the web and the Internet, like
you mentioned, the Baltimore Sun

366
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,960
having a Bureau and somewhere
abroad, I'm not sure where.

367
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,280
And the flip side of that, too,
was a lot of these newspapers

368
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,360
and had incredibly undue
influence wherever they went.

369
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,560
Sort of the dark side of this,
which was like the LA Times and

370
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,160
the Chandler family for decades
ensuring.

371
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,440
That LA remains a non union open
shop city deciding with a whim

372
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,480
of of an op-ed who's going to be
mayor, who's going to where the

373
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,560
black population is going to
have to be living just an

374
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,240
enormous power.
So there was this always this

375
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,640
quality of on the one hand,
within these organizations you

376
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,120
had amazing journalist, but you
also had this certain profit

377
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,120
quality to the to the
organizations themselves and

378
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:28,200
just in some way for the bigger
ones at least, incredibly cruel

379
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,680
and vicious power politics that
they played.

380
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,680
Absolutely.
I mean, there's, you know, media

381
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,800
has always been a source of
political power, right?

382
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,120
And media barons have always,
you know, that's always been a

383
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:45,240
path for building political
effluence from Hurst, you know,

384
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,800
to Rupert Murdoch to today.
So.

385
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,760
So you're absolutely right.
And I don't want to make it

386
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,640
sound as if like, wow, in
newspapers, it was all about the

387
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,600
public good and nobody cared
about money.

388
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,680
I mean, newspapers were
fantastically profitable

389
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,360
monopolies themselves.
They just had a happy side

390
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,280
effect of producing a lot of
journalism.

391
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,320
You know, at La Times, as you
said, and we should mention we

392
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,480
successfully unionized the LA
time, not we, but the workers at

393
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,040
this the LA Times successfully
unionized in the past decade

394
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,640
after more than 100 years of
being extremely anti union.

395
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,120
So shout out to them.
But yeah, I think I mean that is

396
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,040
that is 100% true.
And the only thing that makes

397
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:30,520
today worse is the fact that the
barons of the media industry can

398
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,160
now do it without even doing any
journalism.

399
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,280
You know, the barons are
actually in the tech industry

400
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,080
now, and there's not even a
happy side effect of doing a lot

401
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:41,760
of journalism that is worth
something.

402
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,720
One of the things I was curious
about you also mentioned the

403
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,160
local newspapers covering or
publications covering the City

404
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,080
Council meeting, the potholes,
the schools, etcetera.

405
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,960
The Democratic Party, it was
bipartisan, but I was under the

406
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,760
leadership of the Democratic
Party, played AI think a very

407
00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,440
devastating role in in the
destruction of American

408
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,840
journalism with the 1996
Telecommunications Act, which

409
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:10,280
basically removed any barrier to
how much anyone company can own.

410
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,320
I think it went from a limit of
40 outlets that you can own

411
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,840
nationwide to now something like
whatever we used to be called.

412
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,760
What's called is iHeartRadio has
1200 and, and, and the utter

413
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,320
destruction of local media
because it's not very profitable

414
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,040
when you can just consolidate it
all and they become echo

415
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,040
chambers of each other.
And so that happened to

416
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,600
intersect, just as the rise of
the Internet and the digital

417
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,440
media a few years later would
start coming on the scene.

418
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,880
No, you're, you're right.
I mean, monopolies in every

419
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,200
industry are bad for consumers
or customers and they're bad for

420
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,200
workers and they're good for
investors.

421
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,120
And that's true in the media
industry as well.

422
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,280
And you think back to the 90s
and because people were

423
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,600
complaining about corporate
media and media consolidation in

424
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,280
the 90s too, even before that
law was, you know, that's people

425
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,720
have been aware of that issue
for for many, many years.

426
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,200
But, yeah, like, it's so crazy
to look over that period of time

427
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,080
and see how much worse it has
gotten today.

428
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:16,520
You know, from the 90s to now,
the level of consolidation that

429
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,400
we've seen in the media industry
and all the predicted bad

430
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,840
effects of it have come true.
You know, like it really has

431
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,920
destroyed the quality of local
journalism and it really has

432
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,640
destroyed local radio, you know,
and it really has produced even

433
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,160
more fantastically wealthy mega
billionaires with more political

434
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,240
power and, you know, being more
unhealthy to democracy.

435
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,600
So, yeah, I mean that's that's
capitalism.

436
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,720
For you, man, Yeah, I remember
just as a little contrast, like

437
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,080
during the first Gulf War, you
had some, I can't remember his

438
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,640
name.
You had a couple of decent

439
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,120
journalists around CNN who were
questioning things.

440
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,840
And then you had the 2003 Iraq
war and they were embedded with

441
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,200
the troops basically openly
saying we're just going to

442
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,960
parrot whatever the troops tell
us.

443
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,360
And that was television media in
this case.

444
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,200
And it was like CNN and Fox and
MSNBC, all the major network.

445
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,360
You also get the other side of
it, which is how can you trust

446
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,680
the media when American
journalism, when it's become,

447
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:20,720
well, who are you going to
believe?

448
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,680
US?
CNN, for example.

449
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,080
Or your lying eyes, you know.
Yeah, you know, it's it's a

450
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,280
perpetual challenge for the
media, right.

451
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,880
I mean it, it's always like the
challenge of the media is kind

452
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,560
of to create this like buffet of
media so that so that people

453
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,920
have enough options from enough
different angles that they can

454
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,960
kind of ferret out the truth.
Because, you know, that dynamic

455
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,640
of the media being cozy with the
government and stuff like that

456
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,880
has always been true, right?
Back to her step.

457
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,720
Absolutely.
I mean, I started out in

458
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,400
journalism at a all weekly in
Jacksonville, FL and like the

459
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,000
dynamic there was like there was
1 alternative paper and there

460
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,400
was 1 mainstream paper in
Jacksonville.

461
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,960
And the alternative paper would
write why the mainstream paper

462
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,040
sucks.
And that was kind of a system

463
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,120
that worked.
You know, the mainstream paper

464
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,080
had an important role to play
and they had a role to cover the

465
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,440
news.
And then like you also need in a

466
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,360
healthy system, somebody on the
outside being like, well, wait,

467
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:18,320
let me critique you.
Let me talk about what you're

468
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,400
doing wrong and you know that
and, and you need both sides of

469
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,080
that, right?
So it's like even I've written

470
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,040
probably thousands of stories
about why the New York Times

471
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,120
sucks or, you know, I've wasted
I don't know how many years of

472
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:31,680
my life like writing these
things.

473
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,800
But like I'll be the first one
to say like, you still need the

474
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,520
New York Times.
Like they play an important role

475
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,160
in this ecosystem.
You know, we have to develop

476
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,480
this healthy and entire
ecosystem of journalism, I feel

477
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,680
like is what a healthy democracy
demands.

478
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,400
And there was like a moment, I
think, in the life of the

479
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,080
Internet and online media when
it seemed like the Internet was

480
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,480
going to be this tool where
anybody can start a website,

481
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,240
anybody can start a publication.
And wow, we're going to have

482
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,320
this flowering of all these new
alternative voices.

483
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,160
And it's so open and, you know,
net neutrality and we're all

484
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,720
like on an even playing fields.
And there was kind of at least a

485
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,040
feeling of that, I would say
from maybe the 1st 10 or 15

486
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,200
years of the 2000s where it,
where it seemed like the

487
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,120
Internet was really going to
open up the media like that.

488
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:28,600
And now obviously we've we're
going to a place where we're

489
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,240
seeing that no big companies
are, are able to exert and take

490
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,400
control of online media the same
way they did print media and

491
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,960
everything else.
Yeah.

492
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,560
And I think it's really relevant
what you were talking about in

493
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,280
terms of, like, why this matters
to ordinary people who aren't in

494
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,320
the industry or, you know, all
the editorial decisions about

495
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,480
what is covered is basically
being driven by these corporate

496
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,360
monopolies.
They determine what is safe.

497
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,680
They determine what is quote,
quote, UN quote safe, right?

498
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,000
They determine what should be
censored.

499
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,600
The private equity firms that
started to take over the media

500
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,640
and really just saw this as
let's get in there and get as

501
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,960
much money as possible and let's
buy up all these failing outlets

502
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,600
and we can implement all this
cost cutting.

503
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,840
And of course, cost cutting
always means getting rid of

504
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,360
workers and staff cutting.
And so I think that if you

505
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,120
really follow that trajectory,
it seems like, well, of course

506
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,000
it was going to happen this way.
It was inevitable that if the

507
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,400
goal was never about good
reporting or having

508
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,920
investigative journalists, this
is the result, the consequence.

509
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:43,360
Yeah, it's, it's true.
I mean, journalism is kind of

510
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,760
like a lot of other fields that
are things that are important to

511
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,560
the public good that that
probably shouldn't be in the

512
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,880
control of the private sector.
You know, like healthcare,

513
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,800
right?
You're like, healthcare should

514
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,200
not be a for profit business.
It's a bad idea and there's bad

515
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,120
outcomes when you subject a
human need to like the profit

516
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,480
motive, right?
And we see that and and you

517
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,320
know, journalism not quite as
important as healthcare, but

518
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,720
same kind of principles, you
know, as you said, like you let

519
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,920
private equity come into a field
that is important to a democracy

520
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,000
existing and they don't give a
shit about that.

521
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,000
You know, Gawker Media in fact,
was, but by a private equity

522
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,320
firm.
First it was sold to Univision,

523
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,120
which is a big media company,
and then Univision sold it to a

524
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:28,160
private equity firm so that my
last employer at that company

525
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,200
was a private equity firm.
And it was just the worst.

526
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,240
I mean, the decline of quality
and the decline of everything

527
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,400
about working there was so
apparent when a private equity

528
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,000
firm bought that company.
Like they just did not care

529
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,520
about anything except the bottom
line.

530
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,400
And it was, it was very
cartoonishly obvious.

531
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,960
And that experience is something
that many other journalists and

532
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,320
many other news outlets have had
as private equity kind.

533
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,200
Of there's still doing it,
there's, it's still like right

534
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,960
now it's these companies are
like, let's extract as much

535
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,760
value as possible before the
system collapses, essentially.

536
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,480
Yeah, that's exactly right.
They're kind of like vultures,

537
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,840
right?
It's like we have to keep in

538
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,760
mind the levels of villains.
I feel like the tech platforms

539
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,840
are the big villains in the
sense that they actually kind of

540
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,120
made the whole industry sick.
And then the private equity

541
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,720
firms are like the vultures
overhead that are like, I see

542
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,240
all these, all the.
Suffering companies were just

543
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,800
going.
To come and pick their bones.

544
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,960
Yeah.
When you say they're just

545
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,080
interested in the bottom line,
I'm curious.

546
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,520
How do they anticipate to get
any profit out of a publication

547
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,720
that ostensibly supposed to
produce journalism but produces

548
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,040
no journalism?
It's a great question.

549
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,760
And if you can make a private
equity guy understand that

550
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,440
question, you would be the first
person in history because it's

551
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,240
obviously what like, you know,
we had a union in our newsroom.

552
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,960
Like this is what we said to
these guys from day one, You

553
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,200
know, and Gawker Media in
particular, I think even more

554
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,320
than a lot of other news
outlets, was a place that was

555
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,200
very like writer driven.
It was very dependent on the

556
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,640
interplay between the writers
and the readers.

557
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,000
And like, so that level of trust
that existed was very important

558
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,000
to the, to the business of
Gawker Media, to it being a

559
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,000
healthy company.
And these guys did not

560
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,280
understand or give a shit about
that at all.

561
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,240
And I mean, the, the best
example from our company was

562
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,280
that we had a sports site called
Deadspin, very popular and

563
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,880
successful sports site.
It had 15,000,000 readers.

564
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,800
It was a great site and they
wrote about sports mainly, but

565
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,640
they wrote about everything they
wrote about whatever they

566
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,440
wanted.
And it was super fun to read.

567
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,320
And this private equity firm
went to Deadspin and said just

568
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,440
write about sports, stick to
sports.

569
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,560
That's what they said.
Don't write about politics,

570
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,960
don't write about culture, all
this other stuff that they'd

571
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,640
always written about.
And the Deadspin guys were like,

572
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,120
fuck you.
And they kept doing what they

573
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,920
want.
And so they fired the editor of

574
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,400
Deadspin.
And then subsequently the entire

575
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,880
staff of Deadspin quit and
started their own site called

576
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,480
Defector, which is a worker
owned Co-op successful site that

577
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,160
they started.
But it's like that that idiotic

578
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,040
management destroyed a a
publication that had 15,000,000

579
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,520
readers just by being idiots.
And it's obviously you're

580
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,160
totally right.
It's not good for the business

581
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,280
side and probably is a good
illustration of how like

582
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,920
journalism as an industry, you
can't apply the lessons that you

583
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,040
learn in Business School for
like a tire company to the

584
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,840
journalism industry.
We talked a little bit about

585
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,000
unions, and you talked about the
unionized workforce playing a

586
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,800
big role.
These are the workers who know

587
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,800
what's going on behind the
scenes.

588
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,480
They know what their readership
wants.

589
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,280
This is obviously not what
management wants at all.

590
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,120
And this is not the corporate
priorities.

591
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,160
I wanted to read you something
that you wrote in Gawker in 2015

592
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,720
when you guys unionized and you
said a union is the only real

593
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,120
mechanism that exists to
represent the interests of

594
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,640
employees in a company.
A union is also the only real

595
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,600
mechanism that enables employees
to join together to bargain

596
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,600
collectively rather than as a
bunch of separate powerless

597
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,000
entities.
And basically Gawker story is so

598
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,080
important because since then you
have, I mean, hundreds of media

599
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:26,200
organizations that have
organized unions, more than 190

600
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,680
unions since 2017.
And not just digital media

601
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,320
organizations, local news
organizations, legacy

602
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,000
organizations, online sites,
magazines and podcasts.

603
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,760
So in this rather depressing era
that we're talking about of

604
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:47,960
journalism, are unions the way
to and the labor movement as a

605
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,280
whole, Is that the way to
preserve some level of editorial

606
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,440
independence OR what role do you
see the unions playing today?

607
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,920
I think there's a couple answers
to that question.

608
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,600
I think it's totally true that
every newsroom needs a union.

609
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:07,240
And the biggest reason that the
unionization has swept through

610
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,000
the media industry like you
talked about over the last

611
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,920
decade, you know, I'm, I'm a
labor reporter and I can tell

612
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,280
you like media is one of the
most active unionizing sectors

613
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,400
of any industry over the past
decade in terms of like the high

614
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,240
level of new organizing
campaigns.

615
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,520
I really think that it was
driven just by the fact that

616
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,720
journalists are like smart,
fairly smart, or at least have a

617
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,600
level of common sense.
And so when places started

618
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,600
unionizing in our industry,
everybody kind of looked at it

619
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:42,960
and was like, oh, that's a good
idea.

620
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,880
Like that's obviously a good
idea.

621
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,040
I mean, Gawker unionized.
And right after Gawker

622
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,000
unionized, there was this super
fast wave of like Salon, Slate,

623
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,720
Puck, Pose, Vice, like all of
our peers also unionized over a

624
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,200
period of the next several
years.

625
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,160
And and that continued
throughout, you know, up to this

626
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,800
day.
And as you said, also like The

627
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,840
New Yorker magazine, you know,
and like even old quote, UN

628
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,880
quote, old media places that
hadn't ever unionized, unionized

629
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,280
jumped in and we're like, yeah,
we need to unionize.

630
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,520
And I really think that more
than anything, it's just like

631
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,159
journalists have common sense
and they have like a fairly high

632
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,760
bullshit detector.
And when you understand the like

633
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,679
very basic principles of what a
union is versus not having a

634
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:28,880
union, you're like, OK,
obviously we should have a

635
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,320
union.
I mean, it's it's obviously

636
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,239
better to have a union than not
have a union.

637
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,320
And that it did drive the
unionization in the industry.

638
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,719
That said, even as like the
world's biggest advocate for

639
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,360
unions and media, unions aren't
magic.

640
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,440
And unions are like entities
that work to empower the workers

641
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,239
in industry.
But we can't destroy Facebook.

642
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,440
We can't destroy Google.
You know, that is outside of the

643
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,200
scope of the power of a media
union.

644
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,040
And so.
They also can't prevent layoffs

645
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,160
from happening.
Exactly.

646
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,680
You can provide severance and
protections and make the layoffs

647
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,040
less aggressive or less in the
level of hardship, but they

648
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,800
can't prevent layoffs.
Yeah, unions are a safety net.

649
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,440
And, you know, I got good
severance because we had a union

650
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,280
contract, but I still got laid
off, Right.

651
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,800
So you're absolutely right.
And, you know, and you see, and

652
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,360
we see in media and the United
Auto Workers can tell you this

653
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,520
story also about Detroit, which
is like people will say, oh, you

654
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,360
know, Detroit, Detroit declines.
And it's obviously the fault of

655
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,320
the union, right?
There were too many unions.

656
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,440
And that's why Detroit declines.
And same thing in media.

657
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,640
Like all of the thousands of
journalists who did all the work

658
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,440
of organizing their newsrooms,
they'll be like, well, you still

659
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,440
got laid off.
Well, it wasn't the union's

660
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,080
fault.
I mean, the union didn't make us

661
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,560
get laid off, right?
There's these big structural

662
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,680
issues.
The union is a safety net.

663
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,240
So I think unions are vital,
absolutely vital, extremely

664
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:04,280
important.
Everybody should have one.

665
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:10,480
But there are also, like, global
capitalism issues that unions

666
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,240
are only going to be able to
play one small part in

667
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,440
addressing, I think.
Yeah, I completely agree.

668
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,000
One of the things is, I think,
the quote that Lola read about

669
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,960
how without a union you're just
an atomized individual dealing

670
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,160
with a company and a boss,
whereas with a union you can

671
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,480
actually have some degree of
collective power, even if it's

672
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,080
limited.
You really find in the United

673
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,040
States of America, I think that
a lot of working people have

674
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,920
never even considered the idea
of unions.

675
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,160
Most people did not grow up with
in a union household.

676
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,880
You know, a lot of people today
don't know people in unions.

677
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,200
And so just introducing the
basic idea to people that like

678
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,160
you could have a contract that
guarantees you things as a

679
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,240
worker is like new.
It's a new idea to a lot of

680
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,160
people even.
Like a leap in class

681
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,320
consciousness, right?
And it's a common sense, yes,

682
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,040
Like, yeah, that sounds pretty
good.

683
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,520
Yeah, you can really see the
light bulb go on a lot of times

684
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,400
when in organizing campaigns,
when people are like, oh, like,

685
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,760
it doesn't have to be like this,
You know, you don't have to be

686
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,760
subject to just have everything
cancelled at any moment by the

687
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,880
boss.
I mean, it's unions really sell

688
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,480
themselves.
I think it's just a matter of

689
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,640
getting people to understand it.
The sad thing is it didn't used

690
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,120
to be like that.
Because like, if you go back to,

691
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,560
I think it was the decade after
the Second World War, I think

692
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,440
about half of the American
workforce was unionized at that

693
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,520
point.
It was a third.

694
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,240
I can tell you this because I I
wrote my book about this, but

695
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,280
this is like my stump speech.
About 1/3 a third of the

696
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,360
workforce in in the 1950s was
union members, and today it's

697
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:47,920
less than one in 10.
So.

698
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,800
Yeah, Yeah, it's less than 10%.
Yeah.

699
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,720
I mean, like, I always view
American media or media in

700
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,360
general, not to cast on any
particular journals, but as an

701
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,960
institution, a lot, a lot of
times what they will do is echo

702
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,320
or provide cover for the ruling
class.

703
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,280
We mentioned the Chandler's and
the Hearst's and others,

704
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,120
sometimes small, sometimes
large.

705
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,640
There's this quote that I always
thought was Mark Twain, but

706
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,880
turns out it's misattributed.
You know, if you don't read the

707
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,240
newspapers, you're uninformed.
If you read them, you're

708
00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:20,320
misinformed.
But one of the things that I was

709
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,840
thought was interesting, I think
in the days before the Internet

710
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,760
when the only game in town was
the newspapers and radio and

711
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,840
television.
There was sort of an

712
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,480
understanding.
You had to have the maverick,

713
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,040
the break the mold sort of
journalists in there as a way to

714
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,280
let off steam and as a way to
gain credibility.

715
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:45,840
So you had to Seymour Hersh's
the Robert Fisks and others who

716
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,360
sort of challenged the the usual
rhetoric that comes out of the

717
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,840
government, whether domestically
or internationally.

718
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,040
And today you don't see any of
that.

719
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,040
There's plenty of really good
journalists.

720
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,640
They just tend to write on sub
stack.

721
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,640
They're not part of any major
media organization.

722
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,720
And there's almost this quality
of that, that heyday of that,

723
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:08,480
you know what everybody could
self publish, could have the

724
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,880
blog, could have the have their
presence online.

725
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,840
The large, a lot of the large
media operations basically

726
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,280
translated that.
And the venture capitalists who

727
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,440
would later own the smaller ones
translated that.

728
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,400
Well, we don't need those people
then anymore.

729
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,320
We don't need those Mavericks.
And you instead you just have

730
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,280
quote, UN quote journalism.
That's just echo chambers.

731
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,800
I feel like there's always been
like a trade off between having

732
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,920
a job in journalism as a really
prestigious publication and and

733
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,840
being able to have your own
voice, you know?

734
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,360
So it's all there's always been
like a sliding scale of like, if

735
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,800
I want to work in the New York
Times, I'm not going to be able

736
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,960
to say everything that I can't
say.

737
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,240
Fuck at the New York Times, for
one thing.

738
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,280
I can't say anything about
Israel.

739
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,000
I can't, you can't say, chop off
the King's head in the pages of

740
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,640
the New York Times, even if you
think that is a good idea.

741
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,360
So.
You're absolutely right about

742
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,920
that.
But there's always also been

743
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,680
this kind of alternative side of
the media, for lack of a better

744
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,160
word.
You know, I've spent my whole

745
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,400
career, I've never worked at a
prestigious publication in 20

746
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,480
years in journalism.
Like I worked it all weekly.

747
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,160
I worked at Train magazine, I
worked at a Gawker, I worked at

748
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,480
left Wing magazines, you know,
and now I'm right on sub stack

749
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,760
like I've always been on that
kind of outside part of

750
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,880
journalism.
And it's a trade off.

751
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,480
It's a trade off.
I like the ability to say what I

752
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,280
want to say.
But I will admit, like in the

753
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,160
few times that I've written a
piece in the New York Times,

754
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,840
that piece is accorded so much
public respect, you know, just

755
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,520
because of the name on it, which
is stupid, but also a fact.

756
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,960
So I don't know how to get
around that.

757
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,760
I think every writer probably
got to make that choice for

758
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,720
themself.
How much do you value say and

759
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,520
what you want to say versus how
much do you want the weight of

760
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,040
that prestige, you know?
Well, I think also what we're

761
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,040
seeing, like, Ezra and I were
talking about how, you know, all

762
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,360
of the leftist journalists that
we follow have been fired from

763
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,000
outlets.
Yeah.

764
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,600
And not necessarily even like
the New York Times, but from,

765
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,240
like, alternative outlets like
The Hill or whatever.

766
00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:20,840
I mean, it's just gotten to a
point where you can't say what

767
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,120
you think at all.
I was, you know, I think you're

768
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,520
an excellent writer and
journalist.

769
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,000
And I was like, I don't see any
public, no publication today

770
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,480
would hire you.
Yeah, it's true.

771
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,320
I'm like, unemployable.
It's funny.

772
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,160
Yeah.
Gawker Media was the only

773
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,840
company I know of that hired a
whole bunch of people like me

774
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,120
and a whole bunch of people who
are my favorite to this day.

775
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,160
A lot of my favorite writers are
all people that worked at Gawker

776
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,120
Media and the vast majority of
them are not do not have

777
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,600
respectable jobs right now and
just put it like that.

778
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,240
Yeah, no, no, I just remember
like 20 years ago or 25 years

779
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,800
ago, a number of, I don't even
know that you could call them

780
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,320
left wing, but sort of break the
mold type investigative

781
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,440
journalists who didn't just echo
what the government would say

782
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,480
working for major publications.
The New Yorker, you would see

783
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,560
their material in that sometimes
in the New York Times, sometimes

784
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,400
in the New York Review of Books
or the London Review of Books.

785
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,800
And and I don't think that
exists anymore.

786
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,920
I could name them from a while
back, I can't name any today

787
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,240
that fit that.
I can name plenty of good

788
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,320
journalists, but none of them
are working in any of these

789
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,720
publications.
One of the things I've kept

790
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:37,840
thinking is they've completely
shed even having those few

791
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,680
voices in there.
To give you one small example I

792
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,160
keep using over and over again.
2 1/2 years of watching men and

793
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,000
women and children in Gaza being
shredded into little pieces

794
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,360
every day in our social media
feeds.

795
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,120
Meanwhile if you just watch
major American media and a good

796
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,000
chunk of so-called independent
media, you would think nothing

797
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,720
has happened.
Nothing like that in any way

798
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:02,120
shape or form is happening.
And there there's this massive

799
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,160
disconnect and my God, the level
of homogeneous.

800
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,480
Yeah.
I mean, I think Gaza is a really

801
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,480
good example because it was like
it was something that was right.

802
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,520
All you had to do to be on the
right side of Gaza was just to.

803
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,120
Pay, you know, pay attention.
Not be bites right I.

804
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:18,680
Mean you just have to say what
happened.

805
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,800
Right, exactly.
I mean, just the ability to sort

806
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,720
of not be caught up in the
bullshit allowed anybody.

807
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,360
You didn't need any special
expertise, you know, to know

808
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,560
that you can't bomb civilians
and massacre people and stuff

809
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,280
like that.
So to look back at the coverage

810
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,440
of Gaza throughout a lot of the
mainstream media and you know,

811
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,280
I, I would really have to go
back and study it, but I feel

812
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,920
like it was mainstream media was
essentially a year to a year and

813
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,120
a half behind.
Just simply being able to say

814
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,720
like this is bad, right?
So, so that was like the level

815
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:58,320
of lag before places like New
York Times and those kind of

816
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,880
places.
I don't think they've said it's.

817
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:05,240
Bad yet it's like to some
extent, I think those outlets

818
00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:07,280
kind of represent conventional
wisdom.

819
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,960
Like they kind of are
conventional wisdom, right?

820
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,160
Conventional, like a definition
of conventional wisdom is almost

821
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,040
like the Atlantic or the New
York Times.

822
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,360
Like that's what those
publications are.

823
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,800
And so they're almost more of
like a yardstick of what a

824
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,120
certain the ruling class, for
lack of a better word, like

825
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,600
deems to be a respectable and
reasonable position.

826
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,600
And that's and that runs, you
know, you think back to the Iraq

827
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,120
war, you can think back to the
Vietnam War.

828
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,000
You know, you can think back to
the civil rights movement.

829
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,040
I mean, you can go look at the
media coverage of all of those

830
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:47,640
things and see how ridiculous
the mainstream media coverage

831
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,080
looks in hindsight of history.
Whereas I would say in all those

832
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,720
cases, you know, the left,
people on the left, but probably

833
00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:00,280
more fundamentally just people
who are not so attached to that

834
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,480
respectability politics and
conventional wisdom found it

835
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,200
easy to be in the right place.
You know, I was AI was when the

836
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,720
Iraq war started, was a young
person and didn't have any

837
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:14,160
special knowledge.
But it was obvious to me that it

838
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,560
was bullshit and obvious to
millions of 20 year olds that it

839
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,640
was bullshit.
But yet the New York Times was

840
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,360
unable to bring themselves
there.

841
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,240
So, yeah, it's a, it's a good
demonstration of like the

842
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:29,080
limitations that are built in to
having access to that kind of

843
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,080
prestige media.
And you know, look, I I will say

844
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,400
too, like there's tons of good
journalism produced by The New

845
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,680
Yorker, There's tons of good
journalism produced by The New

846
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,080
York Times.
But yeah, if you look at the

847
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:46,480
kind of the overall editorial
where those publications land,

848
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,200
editorially, they're always
running well behind people who

849
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,960
are able to not be mired in
bullshit quite so much.

850
00:45:55,040 --> 00:46:00,720
Yeah, I think like the Iraq war
showed how deeply journalism and

851
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:04,920
how the role of bourgeois
journalist was to act as loyal

852
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:09,240
stenographers and props to US
empire and to whatever the

853
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:11,800
government was saying.
And it what their job was to

854
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,080
parrot the main line that was
coming from Washington, you

855
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,320
know, and that that's really
what I think we've just seen

856
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:22,920
grow exponentially.
And I think that's why social

857
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:31,200
media and access to other forms
of information and visibility is

858
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,440
such a threat and why they have
to amp it up even more to say,

859
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,480
no, this is the right line.
And this is because, you know,

860
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,600
the the ruling class controls
the production of ideas.

861
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,280
And these are their machines to
do that.

862
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,520
Mark Lamont Hill, another guy
who got hired for saying

863
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,320
Palestine is.
Living.

864
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:52,360
Yeah.
Palestinians are human beings,

865
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:53,600
yeah.
Right.

866
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:56,280
You know, it's we're in kind of
the, I think a really

867
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,680
interesting time of upheaval in
the media because what, what I

868
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,280
see today sort of being
different is the like

869
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,240
respectability politics that
were built into mainstream media

870
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:11,480
that that we just talked about
were always like a little bit

871
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,640
concealed, right?
They were always a little bit

872
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,920
under the table.
Like it was sort of these

873
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:22,040
unspoken assumptions about where
the Overton window was and what

874
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,400
you could and could not say and
what was out of bounds.

875
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,680
And it was the biggest
censorship was probably self

876
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,800
censorship among journalists who
understood what the bounds of

877
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,440
polite conversation were allowed
to be at those publications.

878
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,480
And I feel like the thing that
is alarming people today is that

879
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,360
those lines are being made more
explicit, where you just have,

880
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,720
you know, the same way that our
politics, the brutality of our

881
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:48,280
politics is being made more
explicit by Trump.

882
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,720
You know, that is playing out in
the media where you have

883
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:55,520
billionaires just completely
stepping out from behind the

884
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,280
curtain and Ellison just buying
CBS News and saying Barry Weiss

885
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,360
in charge.
I mean, to some extent, you can

886
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,960
say, well, there's always been
this sort of unspoken level of

887
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,840
censorship.
It's not new that billionaires

888
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,520
control the media, right?
This has always been like that.

889
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,440
I feel like today, because of
the kind of crudeness of our

890
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,520
politics and the crudeness that
Trump responds to, you're seeing

891
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,200
that imposed on journalism in a
really crude way.

892
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,800
You know, to put Barry Weiss in
charge of CBS News and have her

893
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,480
like pull 60 minute stories,
just like even even like the

894
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,920
mainstream journalists are like,
you're not supposed to be that

895
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,080
obvious with it.
You're supposed to try to hide

896
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,760
it a little bit.
And so it's like, or the

897
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,440
Washington Post and Bezos, and,
you know, they're the way that

898
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,240
he just came in and changed the
editorial page.

899
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:49,320
The Washington Post, you know,
again, like even those very

900
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,160
establishment journalists are
like, you're supposed to kind of

901
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,040
do this in a polite, a polite
kind of subtle way.

902
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,360
And that is all going out the
window, right?

903
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,840
Yeah, the mask is off.
There's supposed to be a, I

904
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,280
think.
And I think one of the results

905
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,880
of that veil dropping is a real
generational divide in the way

906
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,720
that young people view the
media.

907
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,200
Like, young people do not trust
mainstream media at all.

908
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,520
When I was growing up and
writing book reports, The New

909
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,640
York Times was the gold standard
of credibility.

910
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,360
You know, like, that was what
everybody considered real.

911
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,280
But I think if you would ask
some Gen.

912
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,320
ZR, they would call New York
Times propaganda, you know?

913
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,720
So yeah, one of the most
interesting shifts I've seen,

914
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:32,520
the media is what is considered
to be a credible resource and

915
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,960
like the rise of influencer
media news and stuff like that.

916
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,600
Yeah, it's, there's a lot of
good and bad things about that.

917
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,720
I mean, we talk about like the
mainstream media and we talk

918
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:45,160
about like a New York Times and
CNN and, you know, magazines are

919
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,120
the mainstream media.
But when I think about it, I'm

920
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,440
like, that actually is not the
mainstream media.

921
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,160
The mainstream media is like
YouTube.

922
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,000
You know, there's guys on
YouTube that I have never heard

923
00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:00,400
of who have multiples of the
leadership of the New York Times

924
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,040
and the Washington Post put
together.

925
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,560
So the reality is like that is
the mainstream media of today,

926
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,400
even the New York Times and CNN
and MSNBC, although they have

927
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,480
like an agenda setting power in
the power structure and stuff,

928
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:17,200
you know, that's really not
where the mass action is in the

929
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,440
media.
And like unfortunately I'm even

930
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,680
too old to know who The Who the
YouTube people are at this.

931
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,600
Point I'm with you, man.
But one of the scary things

932
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,440
though about that is when you
step out of line even on YouTube

933
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,960
or in all of these places, I've
seen many of those more

934
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,800
interesting, some of them actual
journalists who've lost their

935
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,040
jobs and now continued their
career elsewhere.

936
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,760
Some of them are, I guess you
call them content creators or

937
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,760
whatever who are journalists
like have just been shut down.

938
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,880
They've completely been shut
down because, you know, you

939
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,800
violated some rule that nobody
knows what it exactly is and and

940
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,120
you have no way of appealing
and.

941
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,720
Bye.
But to be fair, that goes with

942
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:59,840
the entire theme of this
episode, which is monopoly

943
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,600
capitalism.
Because that's the whole.

944
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:02,920
We're back to the power of
Google.

945
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,000
Yeah.
What platform are you on?

946
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:06,840
You know.
And you know, there's, there's

947
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,520
another problem also.
And it's, I mean, it's the same

948
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,680
problem, but I've had the
experience of writing about this

949
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,320
stuff, the decline of journalism
and stuff.

950
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,080
And people will be like, well,
you know, I, I watch Midas touch

951
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,520
and they're great.
Or like I, I listen to Robert

952
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,440
Reich and he has so much good
stuff.

953
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,520
And I have to be like, those
people don't report, you know,

954
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,480
they don't do any journalism.
They read the shit that the

955
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,040
reporters do and talk about it.
And somebody has to be doing the

956
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,360
reporting.
You know, like what's declining

957
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,240
is the actual production of
journalism, which, as you all

958
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:45,200
know, is like hard and takes a
long time and is expensive and

959
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,280
sort of tedious and, you know,
doing the hard work of like

960
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,320
going out and reporting the
news.

961
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,520
And then all of us who write
opinion stuff read that and talk

962
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,600
about it and and often get more
attention than the place is

963
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,440
actually doing the journalism,
you know, But if that well of

964
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,680
actual reporting dries up, what
the hell is Midas touch going to

965
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,080
be talking about?
Nothing you.

966
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,400
Know yeah everything is content
and nothing is read.

967
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,040
I think that's where we're at
right now.

968
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,680
Cam is always online, basically
spends sorry to to reveal your

969
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,000
your your habits.
I think it's kind of known.

970
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,280
Online watching.
Very online.

971
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,680
Yeah, debates.
And yeah, it's all people

972
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,160
debating what's happening, you
know that.

973
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,240
And that's kind of the.
And the person, the person who

974
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:34,880
reads it well and
charismatically or kind of funny

975
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,240
is the person who gets all the
notoriety versus like you're

976
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:40,240
saying, the person who actually
did the legwork of it.

977
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,200
And the same goes for AI.
Like we have the AI summary and

978
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,520
the AI is scraping all of the
websites.

979
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,880
But if all of those websites go
out of business, then like where

980
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,920
is AI getting current news?
Like it's just the it's not

981
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,800
sustainable.
AI is going to scrape from AI

982
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,760
and then then.
We're going to end up with

983
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:58,520
gibberish.
Yeah, it's a problem everywhere.

984
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,120
I even, like, I even will
honestly admit, like, sometimes

985
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,040
I feel bad even at The New York
Times, you know, because David

986
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,920
Brooks will write a stupid
column or Brett Stevens write a

987
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,880
stupid column, and everybody's
like, fuck the New York Times,

988
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:13,760
you know, blah, blah,
propaganda.

989
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,640
And then there's, you know,
there's some guy who's like, in

990
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,600
the jungle in Central America
following refugees for the New

991
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,120
York Times, you know, and he has
to, like, wear that backlash.

992
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,000
And he's like, man, I'm trying
to report the news.

993
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,440
Yeah, the actual reporters
always get the least credit and

994
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,720
the most blame for everything.
That sucks.

995
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,880
But I think it's also what Cam
was saying about generationally,

996
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,160
like the, the interest and the
preferences have changed because

997
00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:43,520
if you have a corporate
mainstream brand, you're less

998
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:48,280
likely to get those views.
So, you know, people who are on

999
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,200
YouTube or you know, have their
own podcast or whatever, and

1000
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,280
they're, they're reporting on
the news or giving their

1001
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,120
opinion.
It's all about opinion and

1002
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,520
interpreting what's happening in
the news.

1003
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,360
And once you slap a corporate
media brand on that, your views

1004
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,320
are going to plummet.
I mean, that's just kind of the

1005
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,960
reality.
Yeah, it's hard.

1006
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,800
I mean, it's, I feel like most
of the, not even most, but

1007
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,120
almost all of the journalists
that I know or that I've worked

1008
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,920
with in my whole career, if you
were like, what, what job do you

1009
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,040
want to do?
They would almost all say, like,

1010
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,520
I want to work in a newsroom.
I want to be paid a living wage

1011
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,880
and I just want to do
journalism, you know, like

1012
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,720
that's what they want.
And but so many of us have been

1013
00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:31,840
like cast out into this media
landscape where you're supposed

1014
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:36,000
to build up their own brand and
promote yourself and do all

1015
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,920
these things that don't have a
lot to do necessarily with why

1016
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,560
people went into journalism or
why people are good at their own

1017
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,320
kind of journalism.
Yeah.

1018
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:51,400
And I think since we mentioned a
little bit about AI, there's a

1019
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:56,400
term that the writer Cory
Doctorow talked about.

1020
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,960
Do you know about this Hamilton,
about inshitification?

1021
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,800
I mean, a lot of people say this
is where journalism is going,

1022
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,160
right?
Or where where content is going

1023
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:10,080
that you have this digital
environment that's just

1024
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:15,040
dominated by AI generated
content and corporate

1025
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,680
algorithms, surveillance.
There's no human interaction or

1026
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,440
connection, just kind of slop
and a proliferation of declining

1027
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,480
quality.
It's scary.

1028
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,240
Yeah.
No, all of these, we talked

1029
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:31,040
about all these problems and
haven't even talked about AI,

1030
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,360
which potentially is the biggest
problem of all for journalism.

1031
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,640
It's, you know, as you say, you
did, you did mention early on

1032
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:42,160
the way that Google has put AI
summaries on top of things in

1033
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,560
order to prevent anybody from
clicking on links.

1034
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,080
You know, I, I do feel like
we're all kind of living in this

1035
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,960
world where machines are
training on our own work in

1036
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,720
order to replace us in a very
real way, which is not, not a

1037
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:59,000
good place to be.
Now that said, you know, AI

1038
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,720
can't do reporting.
AI can definitely write an

1039
00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:06,240
op-ed, but AI can't do reporting
as far as I know yet.

1040
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:09,400
So that's something that that we
still have, that the humans

1041
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,680
still have.
And you know, I've, I've

1042
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,120
wondered a lot if AI continues
to progress the way that they

1043
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,200
say it will, what is that going
to mean for writers like me?

1044
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:23,640
And my hope is like there will
be some value to my hope is like

1045
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,160
people will assign a value to
something being written by a

1046
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,720
human because people will want,
you know, the fact that

1047
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:33,000
something is written by human
kind of endows it with the sort

1048
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,840
of importance or something that
you know does not exist.

1049
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,360
When something's produced by AI,
even if if AI gets really good

1050
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,520
at writing sentences, you know,
the fact that it didn't come

1051
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,920
from a human mind is a
meaningful fact.

1052
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:51,440
So like, I'm clinging to that
optimistic scenario in my mind

1053
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,200
right now that human writers
will still have some kind of

1054
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,440
importance, but I I have no idea
if that's how it'll actually

1055
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,200
play out.
I tend to think it will.

1056
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,480
I I mean I can.
I can think of 2 examples off

1057
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,960
the top of my head where it's
not the written word, but where

1058
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:13,080
the human part overrode anything
from the AI world. 1 is what we

1059
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,120
talked about Gaza.
The videos and images coming out

1060
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:21,560
of the human beings in Gaza is
what mobilized and motivated

1061
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,400
millions, 10s of millions around
the world.

1062
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:30,280
Whereas if you were to go ask
the AI bots what's happening,

1063
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,120
they will more or less echo what
you're getting out of the

1064
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,960
governments and and the media.
The other one is, is actually

1065
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:43,600
Minneapolis where again, you
know, it's sort of like complex

1066
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,760
situation.
This side claims this a second.

1067
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,440
Meanwhile, in the video that a
human being took or the videos

1068
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,520
from different angles that human
beings took told the story and

1069
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,240
that's what people appreciate
it.

1070
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,440
Now, it's not the written word,
but I think at the end of the

1071
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:03,000
day, I don't think it can do
what humans can do.

1072
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,200
And, and I also think there's a
bubble that's going to burst and

1073
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,560
it's going to be ugly when it
bursts and let it burst.

1074
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,160
I hope so.
Let it burst.

1075
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,680
I think you're right.
And you made a good point about

1076
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,560
Minneapolis, you know, I mean,
all those, all those people who

1077
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:21,440
are out following around ICE all
day in their cars and do an ICE

1078
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,720
watch and tracking SU VS with
their phone cameras.

1079
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,720
Like those people are doing
journalism.

1080
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,360
You know that that is like the
most basic form of journalism,

1081
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,240
watching federal agents in
action and recording them.

1082
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:40,000
I mean, that is journalism 100%.
And everything that those people

1083
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,760
are doing in a healthy version
of America is protected by the

1084
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,400
1st Amendment.
And so seeing ICE agents

1085
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,600
breaking people's car when
getting out and stopping people

1086
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,560
and saying you can't follow us
and breaking their car windows

1087
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,360
in some cases, and dragging
people out of their cars for

1088
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:02,320
filming ICE agents is like a
good measure of how far down the

1089
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,640
path to fascism we've gone.
Because right, what?

1090
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,240
What is journalism, man?
Showing people what their

1091
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,800
government is doing?
I mean, it's textbook

1092
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,120
journalism.
And so the response to that is

1093
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:16,800
is pretty.
Alarming, yeah.

1094
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,840
And, and imagine if those
murders of good and pretty had

1095
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,560
happened without the camera,
without the human beings

1096
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,720
videotaping it.
They would not have had the

1097
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,600
reaction that they've had
because they had have been.

1098
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,120
He said, she said, you know,
and, and for some reason people

1099
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,480
continue to believe the
government, that some reason

1100
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,600
that escapes me, but whatever.
And even, you know, and even in

1101
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:42,960
the even in the first day or so
after Alex pretty got shot when

1102
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,720
there were at least 234 pretty
high quality videos from

1103
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:49,480
different angles of what
happens.

1104
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,960
If you looked at the news
coverage exactly in a lot of

1105
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,960
places, not everywhere, but in
like the New York Times, for

1106
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:02,640
example, the headline was video
appears to contradict government

1107
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:04,720
version.
And like we're, you know, you're

1108
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,480
looking at the video, but they
still could not bring themselves

1109
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,960
to just say.
Yeah, the government is lying,

1110
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,280
you know.
And so that also is is like a

1111
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:19,840
measure of of the resistance to
speaking plainly to some extent.

1112
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,240
So I wanted to address some of
the stuff that you've raised

1113
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:27,160
Hamilton, about possible
solutions.

1114
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,320
I know you said you were
optimistic about human driven

1115
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:34,880
content and the value in the
world of AI, but I what I got

1116
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:40,680
from reading a lot of your work
was kind of for solutions, for

1117
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:44,400
ideas, possible ideas.
And you can correct me if I'm

1118
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,720
wrong on this, but one is
journalism being publicly funded

1119
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,240
subscription models, journalists
depending on subscription

1120
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,080
models, you know, sub stack.
So on getting their money and

1121
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:01,640
their income from loyal
readership, worker owned

1122
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,680
cooperatives and you mentioned I
know Defector, so you can talk a

1123
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,840
little bit more about that and
then destroy capitalism, which

1124
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,200
is basically what we'll always
promote as a solution for

1125
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,520
everything these days.
But does that sound accurate in

1126
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,720
terms of some of the things that
you've talked about?

1127
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,680
That does sound accurate.
That's a very good rundown.

1128
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:21,400
Hopefully.
Yeah, we're leading up to

1129
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,440
destroy capital.
I like that you put that as,

1130
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:25,680
like the capstone of where this
is all going.

1131
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,400
Yeah.
I mean, look, like, as we talked

1132
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,840
about, the most basic problem
facing journalism is like an

1133
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,720
economic problem, that the
economic system that supported

1134
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,120
it has been destroyed by his
tech companies.

1135
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:41,480
And so if we want a level of
journalism that is at least

1136
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,280
comparable to what we had in the
20th century in the sense of

1137
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,000
like, having local news and
stuff, a level of coverage that

1138
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,960
a lot of people in America got
used to growing up and sort of

1139
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,600
assume that we should have this
much journalism.

1140
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,000
And the more journalism the
better, honestly.

1141
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,280
I mean, journalism has always
been underfunded.

1142
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:01,920
So the more journalism, the
better.

1143
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,720
But like, if you're going to
have that kind of 20th century

1144
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:10,360
level of journalism, including
local news in America, we're

1145
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,720
going to need public funding of
journalism.

1146
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:19,440
Like there is just no path to
replacing the money in the

1147
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,880
journalism industry that has
been taken out by the tech

1148
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:25,080
companies sucking all the ad
money out.

1149
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,200
You know, journalism for the
entire 20th century was

1150
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:33,840
supported by advertising.
And if you take the advertising

1151
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:37,720
money out of journalism, you
know, you have this enormous

1152
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,880
hole that can't be filled by a
lot of other ideas that people

1153
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:43,840
have.
And so the only way to really

1154
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,560
fill that hole enough to have a
comparable amount of journalism

1155
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,160
to what people think we should
have or what they had growing up

1156
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,600
is to have public funding.
And really, public funding of

1157
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,240
journalism is a very common
sense idea.

1158
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,680
Journalism's a public good.
You know, you can structure it

1159
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,480
in ways that create some
distance between the government

1160
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,120
and the publication's.
You know, obviously the BBC is

1161
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,400
government funded.
You know, NPR is traditionally

1162
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,480
somewhat government funded.
I mean, it's not a crazy idea.

1163
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,520
A lot of times when you talk
about this, people's first

1164
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,160
reaction is like, well, then the
government's going to dictate

1165
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,480
coverage.
And obviously that's a concern.

1166
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,840
And that's a, that's something
you have to think about in terms

1167
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,600
of how you structure the way the
money goes from the government

1168
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:32,120
to the publications.
You know, you want to have some,

1169
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,440
some sort of separation there.
And you can do that in various

1170
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,640
ways.
But it's always funny to me

1171
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:42,440
because people have that knee
jerk reaction, but people are so

1172
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,520
used to advertising, supporting
media that nobody's like maybe

1173
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,880
it's a bad idea to have the
biggest department stores in

1174
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:52,720
your town financially supporting
the local newspaper.

1175
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,560
Like you think that might like
bias coverage a little bit.

1176
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:57,200
You know, people just got used
to it.

1177
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:00,320
People got used to add
supportive models and journalism

1178
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,360
structured itself in a way to
try to provide some separation.

1179
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,120
And you can do the same thing
with public funding.

1180
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:10,000
So I really do think, yes,
public funding and ideally tax

1181
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,320
the tech companies and put the
money back into journalism.

1182
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,640
I mean, that's the most
straightforward way to kind of

1183
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,960
repair the brake that those tech
companies created that have

1184
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,800
destroyed journalism in America.
And there's been some small

1185
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:29,040
steps in that direction.
California has a sort of modest,

1186
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:34,640
very modest version of this.
Canada tried some tax version of

1187
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,560
this.
So you've seen some some steps

1188
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:41,240
in that direction from different
governments, but but we really

1189
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,800
need it on a big national scale.
So like that is the main

1190
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,160
solution that I propose to
people and tell people like this

1191
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,760
is really the way that we need
to think policy wise.

1192
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,720
We have to convince Trump to
fund fake news.

1193
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,160
It ain't going to happen under
Trump.

1194
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:00,280
You know, spoiler alert.
Like, it's not happening under

1195
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,360
this.
Like anything we talk about is

1196
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,840
like, let's make the policy
agenda for the next president

1197
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:09,200
who's not a Republican.
And so, but, you know, again,

1198
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,400
there's no reason why we can't
put this on a policy agenda for

1199
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,040
a Democratic president And even
even to just be like, this is

1200
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,440
for local news.
You know, it doesn't have to be

1201
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,680
like this money's going to CNN
to say that Trump's an idiot,

1202
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,880
like, or it's going to Fox News.
I mean, it's a problem that

1203
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:27,720
that's what wears people's mind.
Go when you talk about

1204
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:31,200
journalism in the 1st place,
like that's not even journalism.

1205
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:33,560
I'm talking about like who's
going to cover the City Council

1206
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:35,920
meeting?
And so that is kind of the basic

1207
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,560
like public good that it's, I
think healthy for a, for a

1208
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,400
Democratic government to fund
the, the subscription revenue

1209
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:47,600
thing that you brought up, which
is what the world that many of

1210
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:51,360
us are living in now, which is,
you know, hey, all the jobs

1211
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,160
disappeared.
So here I am on sub stack asking

1212
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:57,400
people to pay me to subscribe to
my sub stack so I can make a

1213
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,080
living as a journalist.
You know, it's something that

1214
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,960
for me, it's, it's working out
and it's, it's good for me

1215
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:06,120
personally.
And, you know, I enjoy it and I

1216
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:08,120
like being my own boss and I
like being able to write

1217
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:12,480
whatever I want and say fuck.
And like for me, I like it, but

1218
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:15,600
I will also be the first one to
tell you like, that's not going

1219
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:20,480
to replace the entire national
structure of journalism in the

1220
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:22,040
United States of America.
You.

1221
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,040
Know.
For one thing, there's not

1222
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:27,920
enough subscription money to
replace the number of

1223
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,200
journalists that we had in the
era of local newspapers.

1224
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,480
You know, we're talking about
like a, a small percentage of

1225
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:38,200
those people can like fund
themselves through places like

1226
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,960
Substack and stuff.
And also on top of that, writing

1227
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:46,560
actual news is a pretty poor way
to fund yourself through

1228
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,680
subscription revenue.
So it's just like the math

1229
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,720
doesn't really work.
If you're looking for a solution

1230
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:54,640
for the entire journalism
industry.

1231
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,240
If you're a certain kind of
writer, I think it's great.

1232
01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:00,600
And, you know, I'm that kind of
writer and I like it, but I

1233
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,720
would also like to be working in
a newsroom with my hundred

1234
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,920
favorite colleagues and and
we're all out reporting.

1235
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:10,800
And like, that's the thing that
has been taken away from me.

1236
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,600
Even though I like being an
independent journalist, my

1237
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,880
ability to be in a newsroom has
basically been destroyed by

1238
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,800
capitalism, so.
That's interesting what you say

1239
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,320
about Substack, because I think
I mean, you're, you're right

1240
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,880
what you're saying like that
it's not sustainable as a model

1241
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,000
for what needs to happen.
But on an individual level, it's

1242
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,600
like that's really where you see
a lot of people turning to.

1243
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:38,000
And we were also kind of curious
about how realistic that is just

1244
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,640
even on an individual level for
for journalists.

1245
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:45,480
I think it's much more realistic
if you were able to have some

1246
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:48,840
level of name recognition before
you win the Substack, you know,

1247
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,320
So you see a lot of like, like,
for example, there was like a

1248
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:55,560
people that left the Washington
Post when they started going to

1249
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:58,960
hell and they started Substack.
Paul Krugman started Substack.

1250
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,280
Like why did Paul Krugman start
a Substack?

1251
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,600
He's probably making triple the
money on Substack that he was in

1252
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,320
the New York Times, you know,
because if you were a person who

1253
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,600
had name recognition already,
you can actually make a lot of

1254
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,120
money on Substack.
And look at people like even

1255
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:16,640
Matt Taibbi, who's a lunatic
now.

1256
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,359
But you know, some people are
making millions of dollars on

1257
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:23,800
Substack.
Not me, but if you, if you have

1258
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:28,319
enough to get like 10 to 100,000
paid subscribers, like you can

1259
01:08:28,319 --> 01:08:31,520
do the math that you can make a
lot of money on Substack.

1260
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:37,359
So the problem is what kind of
pipeline are we building for

1261
01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:39,680
young people who want to come in
and be journalists?

1262
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,800
Like if you're starting from
scratch, you know, I even I.

1263
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:43,920
Have that, yeah.
Right.

1264
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:47,840
I'm not famous, but I had like
enough years and to build my

1265
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:51,920
name enough to be able to build
a subscriber base that will

1266
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,240
support me.
If you're starting from scratch,

1267
01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:57,000
it's much harder.
And you know, that's kind of the

1268
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:00,600
systemic problem.
I think in a world where we're

1269
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,399
telling people to just go to sub
stack and, you know, do your

1270
01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:08,240
career on sub stack now, it's
hard for people who didn't

1271
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:11,319
already have a little bit of a
head start, you know?

1272
01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:14,279
Yeah, and so on.
The worker owned cooperatives.

1273
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:16,160
Yeah, look, I think it's a great
model.

1274
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:18,800
I think actually, you know, I've
always thought that like as much

1275
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:22,439
as everybody needs a union, a
worker owned cooperative is sort

1276
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,479
of like even the better model
than a union.

1277
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,920
You know, with the union, it's
like you have an employer and

1278
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:30,279
then you have a union that
protects all the workers.

1279
01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:32,920
But in a worker owned Co-op, you
are the employer, you know,

1280
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,880
you're the owner of the place.
And so to me, it's kind of the

1281
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:40,080
final form of of owner ownership
and structure that we should all

1282
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,479
be thinking about.
Anybody who's starting a venture

1283
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:47,640
or a business like it's, it's
sort of the ideal structure.

1284
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:51,920
And you know, we mentioned
Defector, which is a successful,

1285
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,200
you know, worker owned Co-op
media company.

1286
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:56,120
And I think they're they do a
lot of good work.

1287
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:57,600
I write for them once in a
while.

1288
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,600
They were a place that was able
to kind of take a successful

1289
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,680
existing site and just replicate
it with that model in a way that

1290
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,480
works.
Now, again, that's harder if you

1291
01:10:07,480 --> 01:10:10,240
didn't have that kind of leg up
that kind of.

1292
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:13,560
Head start from the beginning.
But there's no, you know, any

1293
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:17,400
publication, anybody who wants
to start a publication, it

1294
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,320
should be a worker owned Co-op.
I mean, why not?

1295
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:21,600
You don't need to have, you
don't need to have one person at

1296
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:25,200
the top taking out most of the
money, you know, have everybody

1297
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,920
sharing it.
There's a lot of literature out

1298
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,560
there about how to build and
operate Co-op successfully.

1299
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:36,400
And it's just such a fair and
kind of anti capitalistic

1300
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:38,680
structure for any business, you
know?

1301
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,560
Well, I think it you're talking
about people who go into

1302
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:46,040
journalism because they want to
report on what's happening and

1303
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:50,840
they have a connection to
society in somewhat good way.

1304
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,240
Like it's, I just think like
right now we're at this point

1305
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:59,000
where journalism has become so
distinct from that, you know,

1306
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:03,520
it's become just so profit
motivated and so divorced from

1307
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:06,280
the actual people who want to
produce that kind of content.

1308
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:11,120
Yeah, I mean, I do notice that a
lot of my a lot of the best

1309
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:15,080
writers that I've ever known are
like quasi unemployed at all

1310
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:20,480
times, like are like the least
financially successful people

1311
01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:22,240
are some of the best writers
that I know.

1312
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:25,080
So I think that's probably a
real thing that you're saying.

1313
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,880
Like maybe maybe co-ops are the
are the way out of that because

1314
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:32,200
you put all those people
together and you produce this

1315
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:37,120
great product that is, you know,
we talked about how stupid the

1316
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,840
private equity guys are running
a journalism outlet like this is

1317
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:42,920
like the opposite of that.
You know, it's all the

1318
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,560
journalists themselves who know
exactly how to run a publication

1319
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:49,600
being in complete control of the
business.

1320
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:55,120
So, you know, it's AI, think
it's great and there are some

1321
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:57,400
successful examples out there.
Again, like it.

1322
01:11:57,440 --> 01:11:59,040
We need it on a much bigger
scale.

1323
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,280
Yeah, as Do you have any
itching?

1324
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:04,160
I can always.
Sometimes I'm like, what's

1325
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,280
happening in everyone's brain?
No, I'm the only thing I thought

1326
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:09,560
I had is I don't think the
Democrats are going to go for it

1327
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:11,640
either.
I'm thinking optimistically,

1328
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:14,000
yeah, yeah.
I just, I mean, so much of the

1329
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:17,400
horrible shit that's happened is
actually, I always think of the

1330
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:20,120
relationship between the
Democrats and the Republicans as

1331
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,800
the Democrats load the gun, the
Republicans pull the trigger.

1332
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,360
I stole that from Gore Vidal.
But I, I think it's pretty

1333
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,560
accurate.
And that's why, like if you go

1334
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,760
back to the 96 Act, that was a
Democrat and I have not seen

1335
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:35,560
them even hint towards doing
anything like that.

1336
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:38,000
I find them.
I obviously, I don't need to say

1337
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:40,960
that Trump is a repulsive piece
of shit, but because he is.

1338
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,280
But I find the Democrats are the
kind of party that paved the way

1339
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,320
for something like Trump.
I think you're right.

1340
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:50,040
The only the difference I think
with the Democrats is that they

1341
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:54,760
suck, but they can potentially
be bullied into the right place

1342
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:57,640
with the right type of
organizing and pressure applied

1343
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:00,040
to them.
Whereas the Republicans cannot

1344
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:02,960
be pushed into the right place
ever under any circumstance.

1345
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,880
So that's the main difference
that I think.

1346
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:08,240
I think that's also why a lot of
people end up circling back to

1347
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,000
the Democratic Party because of
that idea that they can be

1348
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,560
pressured, but then the
Democratic Party is never

1349
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,800
pressured to do those things.
That really comes when there's

1350
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,920
social struggle and labor
strikes and, you know, flexing

1351
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:22,960
muscle in a in a different way
that shows that there's an

1352
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,640
actual break from the political
structure.

1353
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,640
And Ezra, you mentioned Gore
Vidal.

1354
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:32,080
What I was thinking about was
there's only one party in the

1355
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,600
United States, the Property
Party, and it has two right

1356
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:36,680
wings, the Republicans and the
Democrats.

1357
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,880
And it's funny because we were,
we were talking about Gore Vidal

1358
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:42,440
and how, like, Gore Vidal is
someone else who, like, probably

1359
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:46,440
wouldn't be able to get a job at
a mainstream publication these

1360
01:13:46,440 --> 01:13:48,920
days.
Absolutely not.

1361
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:52,680
You know, he was kind of the,
the defiant voice of the

1362
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:53,640
bourgeoisie.
Yeah.

1363
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:56,680
But he would be super hot on
blue sky, you know, so.

1364
01:13:57,480 --> 01:13:58,480
That's true.
We were.

1365
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:00,400
We were supposed to end on a
hopeful note.

1366
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:02,800
Just a thank you.
That was really good.

1367
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:04,200
Really.
Thank you.

1368
01:14:04,480 --> 01:14:06,400
That was a good, good
conversation.

1369
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,360
Yeah, thanks so much, man.
I appreciate our you coming on

1370
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:14,160
our humble little podcast.
No thanks for having me that was

1371
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:24,240
it was very good, but we.
Don't love anybody who doesn't

1372
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:27,000
love us.
Thanks for listening to Unwashed

1373
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:28,720
and Unruly.
If you want to hear more from

1374
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:32,000
Hamilton Nolan, go to
hamiltonnolan.com or find his

1375
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,560
book The Hammer, Power,
Inequality, and the Struggle for

1376
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,800
the Soul of Labor, or subscribe
on Sub Stack.

1377
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,840
If you have comments or want to
come on the show, reach out to

1378
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,640
us at contact at
unwashedun-ruly.com.