Hunger by Design: The Capitalist Food System

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It's time for you and me to
stand up for ourselves.

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Welcome to Unwashed and Unruly,
where we plant seeds of

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skepticism and watch them grow
to rebellion.

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Today we're talking about how
the food system under monopoly

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capitalism keeps us starved and
sick.

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I'm your host Lola Michaels,
joined by the fact farmer Ezra

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Saeed.
Hi, Lola.

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Hi everyone.
And foodie with a booty Cam

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cruise.
What's up, everybody?

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And welcome to 2026, a new year
that is likely to be a sequel to

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2025.
And we know that sequels are

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worse, so keep listening to our
episodes.

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If you'd like us to talk about
something or join us on the

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show, send us an e-mail to
contact at unwashedun-ruly.com.

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The Godfather Part 2 was even
better than the Godfather Part

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1, just pointed that out so
there is hope.

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You know, I did think Terminator
2 is better than Terminator one

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as an I.
Agree with you.

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But yeah, go go go back and
rewatch.

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It's a little different with an
adult brain.

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I would also say Star Trek 2 is
far better than the first one.

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OK, so there are some instances
that they are not worse, but for

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the most part we can agree that
as a whole, sequels are worse,

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yes.
What we eat is often presented

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as a matter of culture or
preference, But the food

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environment we live in today,
which is made of cheap, highly

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caloric and ultra processed
products causing widespread

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illness, has nothing to do with
choice.

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It's the result of a system
that's designed to maximize

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profit at every step of
production built to break

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bodies.
Today, we'll be looking at how

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the ruling class uses food as
part of colonization,

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domination, and forced
assimilation.

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There's an entire history of
food oppression, plantation

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economies built on sugar and
slavery, government subsidies

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that locked in corn and soy
monocultures, and farm bills

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that only benefit Wall Street.
The result is global human

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suffering, starvation and
sickness, not to mention animal

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cruelty and ecological
devastation.

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In the US, the wealthiest
country in history, one in 10

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people lack consistent access to
food.

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Worldwide, it's closer to 1 and
3.

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That's the major contradiction.
At the heart of it, industry

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produces more than enough food
to completely eliminate hunger

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on a global scale.
There's massive abundance, but

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billions starve.
Let's explore why.

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So I think we can start this
episode with some of the basics

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of what might generally be
called food injustice or food

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inequality that a lot of us know
about in terms of production.

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We hear nightmare stories about
processing plants and

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slaughterhouses and animal and
livestock disease.

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We know about heavily exploited
labor in those plants and

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workers being treated as
disposable commodities

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themselves.
We know about modern food

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production not being about
nourishment and how poor black

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and immigrant neighborhoods are
located in food deserts.

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These households are deprived of
nutritious and quality foods.

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They're pushed into high fat
loaded food like substances or

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fast food, which is the
cheapest.

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I think we all see the
manipulative marketing behind

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food labels, you know, tailored
around consumption and

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commodification.
We've seen oppressed populations

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like like Native Americans with
very lowlife expectancy in large

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part due to diseases caused by
bad food and lack of resources.

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And most recently, we've seen
how quickly both parties are

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happy to abandon the meager
government food assistance that

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exists in this country and to
abandon SNAP benefits to

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millions who rely on it.
So I feel like when you start to

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scratch the history of the
modern food industry, you open

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this Pandora's box and you see
all these examples of how

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maintaining price and control
and profit matters more than

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feeding people.
So I just wanted to start there,

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especially asking you, Cam, how
you came to understand some of

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the extreme irrationality and
corruption and violence of the

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food system.
Yeah, so you covered a lot

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there, Lola.
It certainly is a Pandora's box

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once you kind of lift the lid to
this subject.

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There's so much here.
The way I personally got

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involved with this subject is
because during COVID, I lived in

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a community that was hit really,
really hard.

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Unemployment was really bad, and
there was a lot of hunger in the

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community.
So I ended up becoming involved

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with the community fridge.
And what a community fridge is,

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is essentially a shared fridge
that's outside somewhere so

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everybody in the community can
access it at any time.

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And this was a mutual aid model.
The idea was supposed to be

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horizontal.
You know, people who have more

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food would leave some food for
neighbors and like, it would

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just kind of be the shared
community resource.

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But me and the people who were
running the fridge really

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quickly realized that because we
were in a low income area, the

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number of people who were able
to donate to the fridge were

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really small compared to the
people who needed to take food

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from the fridge.
So we started trying to rescue

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food.
Me and a bunch of other fridges

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created these groups on WhatsApp
and we would share, OK, this

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place, this bakery is going to
throw away this stuff.

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This restaurant is giving this
away.

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This person has a connection
with somebody who works at Whole

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Foods, so they're going to help
hook us up.

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And through the app, we ended up
rescuing a lot of food, just

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driving here and there and
picking things up.

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And because it was COVID, people
had time for that kind of stuff

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and people wanted to get
involved.

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But as everybody started going
back to work, you know, people

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were not available to do this.
And it became really frustrating

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because seeing how much food was
out there, it just didn't make

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any sense to me that anybody was
hungry.

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And the fact that the problem
could be solved so easily, like

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by a bunch of people literally
driving their personal car a

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couple of miles here and putting
food there, we were feeding so

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many people in it.
So I started to question, why is

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there not a system for food
rescue?

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Like, why isn't the government
doing this?

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We could so easily solve hunger
by doing this.

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And then a light bulb went off
in my head, like, oh, yeah,

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that's right.
Because we live in capitalism,

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and capitalism is predicated on
the fear of starvation and the

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fear of homelessness.
So we will just, I just don't

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think we will ever live in a
situation where the government

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makes real efforts to solve the
hunger crisis.

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One of the things that I learned
from your work in the community

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fridge was how much these large
grocery chains and distributors

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just toss out all this food.
Yeah, it's, it's really, really

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sad.
And for a really long time,

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there was a lot of laws that
actually prevented people from

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donating food.
And the more I thought of it,

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those laws are made to protect
businesses like Whole Foods

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because, you know, if Whole
Foods is required to give away

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everything that they throw away
at the end of the day, like, why

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are people going to pay for food
when they can get it for free?

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Yeah, and sometimes they
chemically destroy the food to

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prevent it from being safe to
eat.

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Yeah, this was actually common
practice in public schools, that

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they would pour bleach all over
anything that went into

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dumpster.
Because the way the law works,

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if people ate donated food or
ate food from a company and they

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got sick, they would be able to
sue the company.

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So that was a way that
businesses would protect

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themselves is by destroying
excess.

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Food, but in general it's like
cheaper for them to not have to

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donate it.
And I think there's a really

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disdainful ideological component
to like, they don't want to give

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away surplus food because then
it's the downtrodden and the

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riffraff will start to expect
free food, you know, but.

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Yeah, You know, that's like one
of the common things, like

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that's a very Ronald Reagan
esque idea that people, if you

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give them handouts, they'll
become dependent and lazy.

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It's really just a backward way
of thinking.

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Yeah.
This stuff with destroying the

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food, I don't really buy the
idea that it's about the

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lawsuits.
I mean, I know they say that.

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I think it's to do fundamentally
the same reason you have large

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corporations and food
manufacturers destroy excess

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product as opposed to handing it
out or even selling it at a

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lower cost to the hungry all
over the world.

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It's because it will drive down
the price.

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And so it's far better to
destroy the product, as far as

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these companies are concerned,
than to give it away for free or

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even sell it cheaply, because
it'll just drive the prices

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down.
And food, like everything else

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under capitalism, is not being
produced for human need.

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It's being produced for profit,
to maximize profit.

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And in the case of companies
like Whole Foods or whatever

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grocery store you're talking
about, to distribute the product

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at the maximum profit margins so
they're not going to give away

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excess food.
You know, the little mom and pop

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shop might do that, but that's
not who really controls the food

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supply in America.
Yep, that's exactly right.

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So all the steps they make are
to protect the economy of the

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business and the food economy.
The idea behind that is if

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there's too much product on the
market, then it benefits the

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buyer and the prices lower.
So by making sure there's never

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a surplus, they can guarantee
their prices.

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So yeah, despite the fact that
there are many, many hungry

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people, food is often just
burned or mowed to the ground.

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I remember during COVID too,
there was so much high demand in

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food banks and then they were
just getting rid of millions of

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gallons of milk were just
dumped.

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Yeah, yeah, it's a crime, man.
But like I said, it's a crime by

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design.
Yeah.

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And I think what's also really
grotesque is how hunger and poor

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health are always framed in the
society as personal failures,

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you know, And so they they use
that as a way of hiding all the

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corporate interest in government
lobbying policy that make people

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sick.
And basically, like the working

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class in the oppressed are given
this reality, right?

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But then they're criminalized or
blamed for it.

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So I want to talk a little bit
about like the three main things

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that kind of make us hungry and
sick as we go through this

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episode.
And specifically, I think about

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food prices, food access and
food quality.

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Yeah.
And you make a really, really

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good point because so much of
the criticism goes on to the

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individual.
People have poor health outcomes

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because they have poor diets.
Their culture promotes bad

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habits.
And, you know, things are blamed

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on the individual.
But when we think about it, the

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food industry decides everything
that's available to everybody.

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So everybody's operating under
the illusion of choice.

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But some people have a wider
variety of choices than others.

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So if you think about going to a
supermarket in a wealthy

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neighborhood, obviously there's
going to be a really big produce

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section where there's five types
of apples and Asian pears and

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this and that.
And if you compare that to a

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food source that may exist in a
low income area, which is often

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a gas station or some sort of
convenience shop where there's

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no access to fresh foods or that
variety.

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So although people are blamed
for their poor habits, they're

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not really given a lot of
choices.

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They are victims of their
circumstance and they're victims

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to the choices that have been
given to them by by the agro

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industry.
So if we talk a little bit about

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some of the things you
mentioned, food prices is at the

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top of the list of things that
make it really hard for people,

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make it hard for consumers.
I don't even feel like I need to

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explain this one a lot.
I think this is something, a

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reality that we all live in.
And we all know one of the best

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illustrations I've seen of how
much inflation has grown over

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the years is kind of this silly
little thing that people have

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been doing with the movie Home
Alone.

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I know.
Kevin McAllister rises from the

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dead.
This is the kind of lowbrow,

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highbrow confluence that really
speaks to me.

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So in the movie Home Alone,
Kevin McAllister has 20 bucks.

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He goes to the supermarket and
he's like, and he gets himself a

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bunch of stuff for the week.
It's like frozen waffles and a

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gallon of milk and like little
plastic toy soldiers.

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00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:16,440
So people who are super fans of
the movie every year make the

230
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,120
same shopping trip that Kevin
made.

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00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,720
So in 1990, Kevin McAllister
used the $20 bill to pay for all

232
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,760
that stuff.
The total was $19.83.

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00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,240
It was waffles milk.
Well, there was a bunch of

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stuff.
If you want, we can put it on

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00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,240
the website.
If you want to do the Kevin

236
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,080
Mccauser shopping trip, we'll
set that up for you guys.

237
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,760
So yeah, so a bunch of stuff, 20
bucks, right?

238
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:44,560
So in 2024, the same shopping
trip cost an average of $57.

239
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,320
Crazy.
More than double the price.

240
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:47,840
And then this is really
interesting too.

241
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,840
So between 2024 and 2025, we
also see another big jump

242
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,880
because now guess what?
The Kevin McAllister shopping

243
00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,640
trip is a whopping 70 freaking
dollars, man $70.00 for

244
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,840
something that was 20 bucks in
1990.

245
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:08,160
So we're talking about a 248%
increase over this time span,

246
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,720
which is really, really crazy.
And I'm sure everybody who's

247
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,880
listening feels this to go into
the supermarket, you have like

248
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,040
one small bag of groceries and
somehow it's like $80.00 worth

249
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,320
of food.
So yeah, it's just wage

250
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,680
stagnation has made it really,
really hard for.

251
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:25,880
Yeah, that's what I was going to
say.

252
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,400
Like the the number itself
doesn't shock me, but the point

253
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,440
is is that people aren't making
more money.

254
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,040
Nah man, I'm still making those
$1990.00 and I'm paying the 2025

255
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,080
prices.
Yeah, add to that the fact that

256
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:46,080
rent has massively increased, as
well as utilities and the lack

257
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,360
of access to affordable
healthcare, which has just

258
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,400
gotten worse for a lot of people
this year with the elimination

259
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,760
of subsidies under the
Affordable Care Act, which was

260
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,600
not was never affordable.
And you have a formula for a lot

261
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,680
of people in America, in the
world's wealthiest country,

262
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:09,440
getting sick and dying before
their time for no reason other

263
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,640
than lack of access to what is
there.

264
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,760
This isn't because the country's
poor.

265
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,480
This is a country overflowing
with, as they say, milk and

266
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,280
honey.
It's just it's only going to a

267
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,160
certain small layer of rulers.
Yeah, and access is another

268
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,000
huge, huge problem in the food
distribution system.

269
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,160
I'm pretty sure that everybody
listening to this knows what a

270
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,560
food desert is.
A food desert is an area that

271
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,840
requires people to travel
outside of a certain a number of

272
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,640
miles.
I think it's 10 miles to find

273
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,760
fresh foods.
So these are areas where there's

274
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,240
not really a supermarket, but
maybe there's like a gas station

275
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,800
or convenience store.
But the idea is they don't have

276
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,320
access to fresh produce or meat.
So food deserts tend to exist in

277
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,720
minority areas, in lower class
areas.

278
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,040
So these are people who
obviously are going to have a

279
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,440
harder time traveling to be able
to get better food.

280
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,080
So they end up dependent on
local places that sell only

281
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,520
processed food, only canned
food.

282
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,040
So they're eating Hot Pockets
and Chef Boyardees.

283
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,040
And people who live in food
deserts have a higher level of

284
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,280
heart disease.
They have higher blood pressure,

285
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,360
there's higher rates of obesity,
there's more diabetes.

286
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,920
So all of these complications
and diseases that are associated

287
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,680
with poor diets are really,
really prevalent in these areas.

288
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,920
And there's a poorer life
expectancy in these areas.

289
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,520
That all intersects the
affordability question.

290
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,080
Like what is the cheap food that
you can buy that is highly

291
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,200
caloric that will just make you
not hungry?

292
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,840
Yeah, exactly.
So a lot of the processed foods

293
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,240
are higher in sugar, higher in
fat and also higher in calories,

294
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,560
but have no nutritional value.
So the creation of food deserts

295
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,000
is directly related to the
scaling up of farming and

296
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,600
corporate consolidation.
Because as Walmart replaces Main

297
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,200
Street, the local model died.
Local supermarkets have been put

298
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:53,720
out of business.
They've been replaced by

299
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,280
Walmarts and Safeway's and
Kroger's and just the big chains

300
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,120
have eaten up all of the space.
I think the thing with food

301
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,560
deserts too is that you go to
bodegas, you go to convenience

302
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,960
stores, you go to gas stations
like you said, and you only have

303
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,280
a certain limited amount of food
options from which to cook.

304
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,160
And it's going to be like
preservative laden foods that

305
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,040
have longer shelf life.
So let's talk a little bit about

306
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,800
food quality, even though we
already did a little bit.

307
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:18,960
Yeah, Well, I mean, it's really,
really important.

308
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,600
And it's important to know that
a lot of what's available to us

309
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,960
is based on government subsidies
and really large ways government

310
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,800
subsidies have shaped the
American diet.

311
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,800
So the two crops that are funded
the most heavily are corn and

312
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,640
soy.
So if you look at processed

313
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,360
food, they almost always include
some sort of corn or soy

314
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,720
derivative or ingredient.
And that's because obviously

315
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,840
under capitalism, you're trying
to create the product as cheaply

316
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,000
as you can, so they're going to
use the stuff that's most

317
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,560
available and the cheapest.
The goal of the food companies

318
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,000
is not to produce food that is
nutritious, it's to produce food

319
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,160
that is addictive.
And really their goal is to keep

320
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,280
the bottom line low.
So they're just making a lot of

321
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,080
food out of corn and soy that
doesn't really have a lot of

322
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,800
nutritional value outside of the
Whole Foods that we can find in

323
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,400
our supermarket, which sits on
the shelves, is engineered to

324
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,560
please your palate.
And policies that have attempted

325
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,440
to demand nutritional baselines
have been thwarted routinely by

326
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,359
like the chemists that works for
these companies, and they use

327
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,400
engineering to change the food.
So one of the examples of this

328
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,599
is fortification and cereal.
And you know, you might look at

329
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:28,119
food and it'll say heart healthy
or vitamin C and chemist figure

330
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,880
out how to introduce these
vitamins and nutrients into

331
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,120
food, but they're not
necessarily processable by the

332
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,400
human body.
So they kind of just figured out

333
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,080
loopholes of meeting these
baseline demands of nutrition

334
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,600
that don't actually translate to
better health for people.

335
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,560
And that's just marketing
jargon.

336
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,040
You know, it's like vitamin E,
vitamin C, vitamin whatever, you

337
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,480
know, fortified heart health.
And it's just all bullshit.

338
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,440
It is all bullshit.
And like, I think one of the

339
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,520
things that really illustrates
is that this problem can't be

340
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,960
solved through legislation
because there have been attempts

341
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,560
to force companies to do better
and to make nutritious food.

342
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,520
But the way that they work is
they just kind of create these

343
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,600
clever scientific solutions to
work around these mandates.

344
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,120
You mentioned corn and soy.
Dairy is another one of them,

345
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,320
right?
Because the dairy industry is

346
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,360
very heavily.
Yeah, the dairy industry is

347
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:18,480
super subsidized to the point
that there's been times in our

348
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,640
history where milk is cheaper
than water.

349
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,720
And milk was like one of those
big propaganda foods too, where

350
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,760
it was always tied to the
healthy body, the healthy milk.

351
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,040
Body milk has a lot of power in
this country, so a lot of the ad

352
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,840
campaigns around like how much
milk and dairy everybody should

353
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,840
eat all the time, they're
scientifically disproven but

354
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,920
routinely marketed heavily.
So can you talk a little bit

355
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,440
about some of the other aspects
of the irrational food system

356
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,880
under capitalism, like animal
cruelty or environmental damage?

357
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:52,520
As well.
Yeah.

358
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,760
So there is a lot of suffering
under the industrial model.

359
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,080
You mentioned animal suffering,
and animal suffering I think a

360
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,120
lot of people know about.
There have been some really

361
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:04,200
great documentaries that came
out within the last decade or so

362
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,400
that show footage of the cruel,
cruel conditions that animals

363
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,960
live under, some of the awful
practices they have in producing

364
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,480
food.
So I don't really want to get

365
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,040
into detail about it.
I think there's a lot of

366
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,480
information out there.
And in addition to the animal

367
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,960
suffering, human suffering is
also a big part of our food

368
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,200
system.
Immigrant labor is an integral

369
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,000
link in our food chain.
Undocumented workers face

370
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:29,800
really, really horrible work
conditions that American workers

371
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,200
would never be under.
Because obviously, you know, if

372
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,280
you have a bunch of undocumented
people who can't report

373
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,520
anything, they're just going to
endure these horrible

374
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,080
conditions.
Some of the most horrible are in

375
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,080
the slaughterhouses.
There's a lot of instances where

376
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,760
people will be maimed, they'll
lose a limb or they'll be

377
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,480
horribly injured.
They don't have health care and

378
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,880
they're just out of work and
they're incapacitated.

379
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,440
So they're like left destitute
by the poor conditions of the

380
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,040
working factory.
And even if you're not injured,

381
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,640
the picking fruit or farming of
many kinds is really, really

382
00:19:58,640 --> 00:19:59,720
back breaking.
It's.

383
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,080
Hard, hard work that damages
your body over time.

384
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,560
A lot of farming has to deal
with using pesticides, and of

385
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,160
course there's not regulations
around undocumented workers.

386
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,080
And there are instances where
pregnant women are dealing with

387
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,320
pesticides and are born with
deformed children.

388
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,000
I don't see personally the
problem as per SE the

389
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,640
industrialization of food
production or the

390
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,400
industrialization of
agriculture.

391
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,160
I actually think that's a
positive because I don't think a

392
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,840
bunch of small peasant holders
could feed over 8 billion people

393
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,640
on this planet.
I think the fundamental problem

394
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,960
is that you have a capitalist
system that uses that

395
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,400
industrialization to to gear the
production of food for profit as

396
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,360
opposed to feeding people.
And that by definition will

397
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:49,360
result in everything from the
brutal super exploitation of

398
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:54,080
workers to the horrific
Treatment of Animals.

399
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,000
But it's inbuilt because it's
designed to make profit.

400
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,920
Which is, again, to circle back
why they destroy excess product.

401
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,120
Since the dawn of humanity, as
far as I know, humans have

402
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,960
always faced the prospect of
hunger because they've had no

403
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,760
control over their environment.
And trade networks have always

404
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,720
been, until very recently, very
narrow and not very fast.

405
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,040
And so a drought could destroy a
whole village, could destroy a

406
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,200
whole society.
But this is the first time in

407
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,120
human history where you have
widespread hunger in large parts

408
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:34,760
of the world, even though there
is more than enough food already

409
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,360
being produced to feed
everybody.

410
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:40,280
There should be no reason for
hunger to exist.

411
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,240
There should be no reason for
any of this to happen other than

412
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,240
the profitability of the ruling
class.

413
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:51,040
It's just when you get to
industrialized agriculture and

414
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,280
slaughterhouses and things like
that, it's not that they do it

415
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,480
so they can sell it cheap
because it's not cheap.

416
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,000
I mean, buying meat is not cheap
right now.

417
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,360
No, it's cheap, cheap, cheap to
produce.

418
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,920
Cheaper than it would be if we
got meat from small farms.

419
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,280
Well, right, because I think
small farms are inefficient.

420
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,040
I think it's the problem is is
again, it's not

421
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,600
industrialization.
The problem is capitalist

422
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,520
industrial.
Well, I, I think that a lot of

423
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,760
people would disagree with you
on that idea.

424
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,320
There's a lot of advocates who
really, really want there to be

425
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,480
more small farms working on
local levels and local

426
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,480
operations.
And I do agree with a lot of

427
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,400
what you said, but one of the
things that you said is that

428
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,760
industrial farming has to exist
to feed this many people.

429
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,480
But the systems of industrial
farming are really, really

430
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,000
harmful and counterintuitive in
a lot of senses.

431
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,320
If there's a point I can
illustrate that really shows how

432
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,240
nonsensical it is, is farms had
to scale up, you know, big box

433
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,920
stores, they have to be able to
meet demand.

434
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,360
So farms that once had 200 heads
of cattle now have 20,000 heads

435
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,680
of cattle.
And it makes it impossible to

436
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,720
use traditional farming styles
when you have that massive

437
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,840
volume.
So one of the the traditional

438
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,440
styles of farming involves cows
graze in one area and then go to

439
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:59,880
the other.
That's like pasture grazing.

440
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,840
But if you have 20,000 cows, you
literally cannot do it because

441
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,520
their hooves turn up the ground
and kill all of the grass.

442
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,520
So like you have to keep them
indoors.

443
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,840
So that is created by just the
volume of things.

444
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,240
Another thing to consider when
you have that volume of animals

445
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,760
is if you have 100 cows on a
piece of land, the land is able

446
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,560
to absorb their waste naturally.
But when you have 20,000 cows,

447
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,120
all of a sudden they're
producing gallons and gallons of

448
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:27,160
urine.
So one of the things a large

449
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,520
scale farmers have to do is they
have to create these really,

450
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,120
really big vats for animal
waste.

451
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,880
And there's been cases where
millions of gallons of urine

452
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,480
have leaked through these vats
and poison local water systems.

453
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,480
So there's a lot of experts who
say that we can feed people by

454
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,080
having more local farms in a way
that creates less vulnerability

455
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,080
and more equality and doesn't
hurt the environment to the

456
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,680
level of factory farming does.
Well, I have two things to say

457
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,040
about that.
One is under capitalism and

458
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,840
under imperialism, the local
farm are not we're going to

459
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,480
thrive.
One, they can't compete.

460
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,840
Yeah, I mean because because
they are inefficient, they

461
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,520
cannot produce as much quantity
of food to feed as many people.

462
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,920
Yeah.
But I'm, I'm just saying, are we

463
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,320
valuing efficiency over
well-being?

464
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,880
Well, I'm valuing the ability to
feed 8 billion people.

465
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:20,400
When you have a bunch of small
farms versus a large farm, the

466
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,160
large farm will outproduce the
bunch of small farms that are

467
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,280
unplanned and indirected.
So the problems you talked about

468
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,520
are not problems inherent in the
enterprise itself.

469
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,960
It's inherent in the
irrationality of world

470
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,760
capitalism, where you don't
actually plan any of this stuff

471
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,000
on a global scale.
It almost sounds like the way

472
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,800
that industrialization creates
food.

473
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,200
All of these destructive
elements, wage exploitation,

474
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,080
dangerous working conditions,
water pollution is embedded in,

475
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,280
It's part of the cost of doing
business.

476
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,320
I think in a socialized planned
economy, you would have to have

477
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:03,600
massive industrialized food
production, but you would do it

478
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,600
in a way where there wouldn't be
exploitation and there would be

479
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,280
an attention toward the
devastating consequences of it.

480
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,360
I think that's the point is that
who owns the production.

481
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,360
My point is this.
Are the problems you are

482
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:23,880
describing which are very real,
inherent to industrialized

483
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,080
farming and agriculture, or are
they inherent to the capitalist

484
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,440
system of industrialized farming
and agriculture?

485
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,240
I say it's the latter.
And I would also add to that

486
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,840
under working class rule you
still need industrialized

487
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,880
farming and agriculture.
Yeah, I don't disagree with

488
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,320
that.
But I think the form of

489
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,760
industrial farming we have now
with mono crops, I think like a

490
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,600
sensical system wouldn't use the
form of industrial farming we

491
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,680
are using now.
So industrial farming has to

492
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,320
exist, but it could look
different, is what we're

493
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,280
agreeing well.
Yeah, it's it's sort of like

494
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,680
industrialization in general has
to exist.

495
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,400
You have let me try another
example.

496
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,800
Has nothing to do with food.
You have to have fossil fuels.

497
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,760
You have to have fuel, you have
to have oil.

498
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,880
You have to have these things
for a modern society to

499
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,840
function.
But you can do it without

500
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,480
destroying the planet, without
super exploiting people, without

501
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,560
destroying the deltas in
Nigeria, without invading

502
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,400
Venezuela.
That is not inherent to

503
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,360
extracting those fossil fuels.
That is how capitalism does it.

504
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,840
Yeah, that makes sense.
And if you had an industrialized

505
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,600
system that is under a
collectivized planned economy

506
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,600
where there was actual interest
in not destroying the planet.

507
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,440
Yeah, if profits weren't the
main goal, then obviously things

508
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:37,960
would work a lot differently.
Yeah.

509
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,760
And I think that's the point of
efficiency, is that efficiency

510
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,320
is always through the lens of
the corporations that hold the

511
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,080
power.
Yeah.

512
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,280
Efficiency means something very
different depending on what

513
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,240
values you're trying to achieve
or being LED guided by.

514
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,000
For them it's lower production
risk and mono cropping all that

515
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,760
stuff.
Uniform crops, that's easier for

516
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,680
them to trade and store and
process and speculate on.

517
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,120
You know, that's a big part of
it.

518
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,240
I think this is a good
transition to talking about how

519
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,640
food production has been
organized in this country and

520
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,280
how it revolves around
maximizing returns on

521
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,400
investments and these kind of
uniform cheap inputs at scale

522
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,240
and how deep it goes.
It goes back before the Farm

523
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,160
Bill of the 1930s under the New
Deal, but that was where you see

524
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,760
like the origins of supply
controls and price supports and.

525
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,560
Yeah, this is where the the US
government really starts to get

526
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,080
involved with agriculture.
Yeah.

527
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,760
So can you talk a little bit
about the original Farm Bill?

528
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,320
Sure.
So the first Farm Bill comes up

529
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,240
in 1933, and it's a response to
two things.

530
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,400
One is the Dust Bowl, and the
second is the Great Depression.

531
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,600
So the Dust Bowl was an
environmental disaster that was

532
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,560
making everybody's house covered
in dust.

533
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,760
It was causing all these health
problems, and it was caused by a

534
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,640
really quick expansion and
farmers weren't treating the

535
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,000
soil responsibly.
So in the first bill, there's a

536
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,160
bunch of mandates that required
farmers to do all this stuff to

537
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,520
stop the Dust Bowl from
spreading.

538
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:00,920
And they were able to solve that
problem.

539
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,240
And the next big thing the farm
bill did, which it still does

540
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,840
today, is that it gives support
to farmers.

541
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,920
So while the Great Depression
was happening, the markets were

542
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,000
crashing. the US government knew
that they could not allow the

543
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,080
farm industry to crash.
They needed to be able to

544
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,240
produce enough food to keep
people working, which is

545
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,640
honestly the main thing.
So they need, they cannot let

546
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,000
their production force die out.
So the farm bill protects

547
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,360
farmers by buying surplus
commodities.

548
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:28,560
So they encourage people to grow
more product.

549
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,120
And then at the end of the
harvest, they would put all of

550
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:34,520
that stuff into storage and they
would use that to control prices

551
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,320
on the market.
So if there was ever not enough

552
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,520
product on the market, instead
of the price of a bushel of

553
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,080
wheat or whatever going up, they
would put the supply, some of

554
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,640
that supply that they had in
storage back into the market so

555
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,360
that everything would always
stay balanced.

556
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,080
And if there was a surplus they
would take, if there was a

557
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,240
shortage, they would put.
And that way they would price

558
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,840
guarantee.
And the price guarantee is like

559
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,000
essentially what a subsidy is.
It's saying, you know, a bushel

560
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,640
of wheat should cost the dollar.
And if you're only getting

561
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,840
$0.89, don't worry, the
government is going to make up

562
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,920
the difference.
So this is where government

563
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,000
subsidy started, and this is the
beginning of of a real

564
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,360
discrepancy of power where
certain groups started gaining

565
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,720
more and more support from the
government and grew and their

566
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,440
influence and other groups got
pushed down and pushed out.

567
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,600
The two crops that got the most
government assurance is corn and

568
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,520
soy.
And it's because those are

569
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,680
storable.
You can dry them out and store

570
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,520
them.
And also they're high in

571
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,920
calories so they can feed a lot
of people, give them a lot of

572
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,720
energy for cheap.
Yeah, one of the things that I

573
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,480
learned from talking to about
this before the podcast Cam, was

574
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,080
how over the years these
agricultural companies got so

575
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,720
used to the federal financial
support and they that allowed

576
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,360
them to consolidate and grow and
and gain power.

577
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,320
And they were held on to all
these subsidies.

578
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,680
And it was, like you said, corn
and soy, but also wheat and milk

579
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,080
and meat.
And yeah.

580
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080
And not only did they hold on to
the subsidies, they grew over

581
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,240
time.
So the farm bill still exists

582
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,000
today.
Every five years the farm bill

583
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,960
comes up.
And obviously there's a lot of

584
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,520
groups who have a lot of
interest in influencing what

585
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,200
goes into that farm bill.
So today, the farm bill still

586
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,880
does some environmental stuff.
It includes food assistance like

587
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,400
SNAP.
But the big fighting ground,

588
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,520
well obviously SNAP is a big
fighting ground, but one of the

589
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,800
big fighting grounds is the
subsidies.

590
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,120
So if we think about how
government subsidies are set on

591
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,680
one side of the spectrum of
influence, people who are

592
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,640
looking to influence what goes
into the bill, we have consumers

593
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,840
and small farmers.
And consumers and small farmers

594
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,160
want more local control.
They want more funding for small

595
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,040
farms.
They want more access to credit,

596
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,160
more lenders.
And on the other side of the

597
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,080
spectrum, we have the powerful
agro conglomerates.

598
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,440
And they want more government
support and they want freedom to

599
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,640
be able to grow their profits
and to grow their control.

600
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,640
So if we think about these two
groups, one side, we have small

601
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,120
farmers and consumers, you know,
lots of activists working

602
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,960
really, really hard to try to
influence what goes into the

603
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,480
farm bill.
But then if we look at the

604
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,800
opposite side of the spectrum
with those huge agro

605
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,880
conglomerates, those groups are
able to hire lobbyists, full

606
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,520
time lobbyists, people who make
hundreds of thousands dollars a

607
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,520
year to go to Capitol Hill and
fight for their interests.

608
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,080
So obviously the lobbies have
made a lot more progress and a

609
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,600
lot more of what goes into the
food bill benefits those large

610
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,520
agro businesses, and they've
gained a lot of power and a lot

611
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,160
of influence in our food
industry.

612
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,080
But the main purpose of these
subsidies and keeping big

613
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,840
agriculture afloat is to offload
the community foods, offload all

614
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,440
the extra surplus food.
And the way that they offload

615
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,160
this surplus food is through
things like Indian reservations

616
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,640
and WIC benefits for women and
infants and the National School

617
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,720
lunch program.
And so it's like, OK, well, we

618
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,720
can pretend like we're feeding
people, quote, UN quote, through

619
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,760
these government programs, but
really it's in their interest to

620
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,360
offload the surplus that they're
buying from these companies.

621
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,920
And they can have a pretense of
whatever they call them

622
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,040
nutritional programs, even
though they're not nutritional.

623
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,960
And all those, all those donated
foods just exist to protect

624
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,800
agricultural companies.
They're not based on charity.

625
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,320
Right.
There's another side to it too,

626
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,400
that's kind of interesting,
which is the subsidizing of corn

627
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,280
in particular has been used as a
fairly powerful weapon by the US

628
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,680
government.
We talked about these

629
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,680
corporations, they're enmeshed
with the government.

630
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,800
The government exists to
protect.

631
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,080
Well, you know, the capitalist
government is the executive

632
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,200
committee to run the common
affairs of the capitalist ruling

633
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,680
class.
And so you have.

634
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,920
There was a major food crisis in
around 2007, 2008, especially in

635
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,080
so-called third world where food
prices massively spiked.

636
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,640
And one of the chief causes of
that was the rising price of

637
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,760
corn, corn product.
And one of the reasons for that,

638
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,760
which as you pointed out is
subsidized.

639
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,360
So why is it rising if it's
subsidized?

640
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,800
Well, the reason it's rising was
rising was because the US was

641
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,160
subsidizing corn production, but
it was using it for the creation

642
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,080
of so-called biofuels.
And it was taking it off the

643
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,840
market, which was driving prices
up because the US is one of the

644
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,320
largest exporters of corn
products.

645
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,400
Then more people who rely on
corn, what would go and rely on

646
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,640
wheat instead.
So that drove the demand,

647
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,640
increased demand for wheat,
drove the prices of wheat up,

648
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,360
and it was just basically a
racket that drove up the prices

649
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,160
of both corn and wheat, all in
the name, by the way, of

650
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,320
environmentalism.
And it just massively increased

651
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,440
hunger throughout the world.
There were riots in a number of

652
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,360
places.
I think you make a really,

653
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,840
really important point because
these conglomerates have grown

654
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,040
so big that their impact is not
just sequestered to the US

655
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,560
anymore.
It's felt around the world in

656
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,560
1994 farmers were able to
influence the Farm Bill to get

657
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,440
the freedom to farm pass through
and for the first time they were

658
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,840
able to export all the surplus
they were creating and that

659
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,360
exportation totally upended
local markets.

660
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,200
On a global scale, if you were
to ask someone what is the

661
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,040
biggest food monolith today, I
feel like people immediately

662
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,480
would say like Walmart or.
McDonald's.

663
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,480
McDonald's or something like
that, right?

664
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,080
There's this monolith that is
not a common name at all, and

665
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,719
it's existed since 1865.
The most powerful corporation on

666
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,719
earth.
That no American knows the name

667
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,600
of.
The worst company in the world.

668
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,120
It's called Cargill.
They're actually headquartered

669
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,159
in Minneapolis and this company,
Cargill, controls the entire

670
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:39,719
global supply chain, and they do
it through vertical integration.

671
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,320
They own multiple facets of the
supply chain.

672
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,400
They are incredibly, incredibly
powerful.

673
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,960
Cargill is one of the four main
food monoliths, so there's

674
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,159
considered the global ABCD
firms.

675
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:56,199
So there's Adm, Bung, Cargill
and then Louis Dreyfus.

676
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,440
I think it's the other one from
Seinfeld.

677
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,640
They just.
Elaine behind this, Not Elaine.

678
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,000
And 50% of those four are
American.

679
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,840
The other two bunch or bun.
However you say it is actually

680
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,000
it's more than 50%.
Is USEU owned and Louis Dreyfus

681
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,960
is French?
Yeah, we're we're the big aggro

682
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,800
daddies on the planet I.
Think, but it's like every piece

683
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,240
of food that you eat, Cargill
makes money on.

684
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,000
And that's why they're compared
in terms of their strength and

685
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,120
power and their tentacles all
over.

686
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,560
They're compared to Standard
Oil.

687
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,200
They're compared to the British
Empire.

688
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,920
They make $160 billion in annual
revenue.

689
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,480
And it's a private company, so
they don't have to disclose

690
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:38,760
anything.
Exactly.

691
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,400
They don't have publicly traded.
Yeah, they're completely

692
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,160
shielded.
And So what they do, this

693
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,560
vertical integration, the reason
why they're not really known as

694
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,400
a household name is because they
don't sell food directly to

695
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,400
consumers.
But they're this middleman

696
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,240
between like, farmers and
processors and distributors and

697
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:59,760
retailers.
And since the 1990s, they bought

698
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,440
out all of their competitors.
They made over 41 acquisitions

699
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,080
since the 1990s.
And so this is what they

700
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,920
control.
They control agriculture, right?

701
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,400
So like grain trading, corn,
soy, wheat, they buy the grain

702
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,320
from farmers.
They export all the core

703
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,200
ingredients.
They control oilseed crushing,

704
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,920
animal feed, which they sell to
meat producers.

705
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,200
They do meat processing.
They own fertilizers and inputs,

706
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,720
They own their own shipping and
food storage and logistics.

707
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,120
So they transport it on their
own ships, their own ports and

708
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,040
ocean ways and highways.
And to top it off, they do all

709
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,160
the financial speculation on
commodities, so they hedge

710
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,720
prices in commodities.
It should be illegal.

711
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:44,320
Well, everything the ruling
class does should be illegal.

712
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,840
Yeah.
But to your point, Cam, about

713
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,160
the Farm Bill and these
competing groups trying to

714
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,280
influence the Farm Bill like
you're going up against Cargill.

715
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,080
Yeah, How do you compete with
Cargill?

716
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,040
And they have massive influence
on trade policy, environmental

717
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,720
regulation, like they shape all
the global trade rules.

718
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,640
And I think even the way they
grew is an interesting study on

719
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,680
how subsidies empowered certain
groups.

720
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,240
So great, great granddaddy
Cargill was around, around when

721
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:13,360
they were building the
transatlantic railway.

722
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,440
And he realized that if he put
some silos near the train

723
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,880
stations and stored grain on
years where there was oversupply

724
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,280
and he bought it cheaply, he can
resell it more expensively later

725
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,120
on.
So first it started out just

726
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,600
with the silos and then after a
while they were like, you know

727
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,080
what would make us even more
money?

728
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,720
If we own this rail line and if
we own the rail cars and if we

729
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,840
own the animal feed.
Little by little they were able

730
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,400
to grab more and more.
And the reason that they were so

731
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,600
wealthy and so powerful is
because they were being propped

732
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,080
up by the government.
Even in years of economic

733
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,600
decline, they were making a lot
of money.

734
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,040
Yeah, and their early growth
intersected the rise of

735
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,600
imperialism at the end of the
19th century.

736
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,560
And So what you see since then
in terms of the global food

737
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,400
market is these weaker countries
have become complete slaves to

738
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,680
the world market.
And the US ruling class, the

739
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,560
imperialist ruling class, has
always used food as a tool of

740
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,240
control and conquest, like you
look at back to the United Fruit

741
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,600
Company to today.
Yeah, food is a weapon, and it

742
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,600
has always been a weapon, and
it's a weapon of war.

743
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,400
I mean, you can look at it in
history, when you put a city

744
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,400
under siege, you're preventing
food from going in there.

745
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,080
So you can starve the population
into submission.

746
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,360
When the US put sanctions on
somebody or a country, whether

747
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,760
it's Venezuela, Iraq basically
destroyed the economy of

748
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,600
Venezuela.
Basically, it starved a million

749
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,960
or million and a half people in
Iraq or, or the sanctions

750
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,560
they're attempting on Russia,
which aren't seem to be working

751
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,280
very well.
The idea is to starve the

752
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,160
population into submission.
Or if you want to look at it

753
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,360
even more graphically, Gaza,
where you can see the use of

754
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,040
food and starvation and famine
as a weapon to basically achieve

755
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,000
the expulsion of the population.
So if you can control the food

756
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,920
and the food supply and the food
distribution systems, you have a

757
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,920
powerful weapon in your hands.
I mean, we were having a

758
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,280
discussion earlier about small
farms, big farms and the

759
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,840
question of efficiency, being
able to compete with the bigger

760
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,760
farms and these massive
corporations.

761
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,560
Well, if you go to, we could
call them the third world, the

762
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,400
weaker countries, underdeveloped
countries, whatever term you

763
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,760
want to use for them, countries
of belated capitalist

764
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,160
development, semi colonial
countries, they usually used to

765
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,120
have tariffs or protectionist
measures to protect their local

766
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,640
farms and farming industry from
foreign competition.

767
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:41,240
And that was a way to maintain
their farms and not have to

768
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:45,480
compete with, let's say, goods
produced by American companies

769
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,240
or European companies.
Those would have taxes or

770
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:50,960
tariffs put on them.
So you would more likely buy the

771
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,480
local stuff if you live there,
which might also get subsidies

772
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,400
on top of the tariffs.
In the name of free trade, which

773
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,600
everybody loves, talks about
free trade.

774
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,000
It's only free to the masters.
It's not free to those

775
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,840
countries.
Those tariffs had all all had to

776
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,080
come down.
The subsidies all had to come

777
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,960
down, and now these small farms
had to compete with the powerful

778
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,160
American and European
corporations like Cargill and

779
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,840
Louis Dreyfus and others.
I'll give you 2 passing

780
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:24,160
examples, Egypt and Nigeria.
Egypt in the 1950s only imported

781
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:30,320
about 5% of its food. 95% of its
food was domestically grown.

782
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,120
Whether it's by large
agricultural fields or small

783
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,520
land holding peasants, whatever
it was, 95% was produced at

784
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,880
home.
Today, Egypt imports over 50% of

785
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,960
its food and when you look at
the most vital food, which in

786
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,400
Egypt it's bread, it imports 75%
of wheat.

787
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,440
In fact, Egypt is the world's
largest wheat importer and so

788
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,760
therefore it's a slave to
Cargill Adm Bung Louis Dreyfus.

789
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,480
In other words, it's a slave to
the US and the EU.

790
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,440
And, and this was done by
design.

791
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,840
You know, in the 1970s, Egypt
opened itself up to the world

792
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,680
market.
Basically for the Egyptian

793
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,720
ruling class to share in the
well, basically everything had

794
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:19,200
to be changed.
So agriculture had to be export

795
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,880
oriented.
So you're not going to produce

796
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,800
food for need anymore.
You're going to produce cotton.

797
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,080
All these fields are going to
produce cotton.

798
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:27,600
And where are you going to
produce food?

799
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,080
That food is going to be for
export.

800
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,720
So you have massive amounts of,
for example, strawberry

801
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:36,160
production in Egypt.
Nobody in Egypt eats

802
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,560
strawberries.
Very few people eat

803
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,080
strawberries.
That's for, that's for export to

804
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,560
Europe.
You're saying Strawberry

805
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,160
Shortcake isn't a common dessert
in Egypt in the Egyptian working

806
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,240
class?
I know, I think I saw some

807
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,240
hieroglyphics with strawberry.
There you go.

808
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,600
Yeah.
And so you now have a situation

809
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,600
where insofar as you have
farmers that could still exist

810
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,240
in the country, the way they
exist is to basically produce

811
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,520
for the large corporations,
whether it's cash crops or

812
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,840
exported food, similarly with
sugar and things like that.

813
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,840
And then on top of that, you
have the World Bank and the IMF

814
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,280
demanding all subsidies and and
things like that.

815
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,240
And then let's look at another
example, Nigeria.

816
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:18,680
Until the 19, early 1970s,
Nigeria was almost entirely

817
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,800
getting its food from domestic
production, imported no food

818
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,440
whatsoever almost entirely.
And it was actually an exporter,

819
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,840
an exporter of ground nuts,
particularly peanuts, of palm

820
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,360
oil and of cocoa and it was
dominated by small holding

821
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,800
production.
Then oil got discovered in the

822
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,160
late mid to late 1960s by Shell,
Exxon, BP, etcetera, and the

823
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,240
whole of Nigeria's economy had
to be turned upside down to be

824
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,160
entirely geared towards oil
extraction.

825
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,360
Basically the entire rural
population was destroyed.

826
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,560
Agriculture was crowded out.
It was not modernized.

827
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,520
It was not industrial.
I was just crowded out and

828
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,720
destroyed.
They had to change their entire

829
00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:00,560
diet because of what they were
getting from the West.

830
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,600
Yeah, one thing I was going to
say is that you're pointing

831
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,320
exactly to that cycle of
dependence because you basically

832
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,600
destroy the local system, the
countries and the population

833
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,720
becomes completely reliant on
imports.

834
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,880
And then that is a whole other
cycle because then it's like all

835
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,480
of their land and labor and
water is directed towards export

836
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:26,360
crops to earn this foreign
currency rather than feeding the

837
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,360
local populations.
And so it's just price collapse

838
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,240
and farmers being pushed off the
land and domestic food

839
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:34,080
production declining.
Like everything that you're

840
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,440
talking about is so inherent in
the imperialist food system.

841
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,000
Yeah, and it's designed that
way.

842
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,640
So.
And in the case of Nigeria,

843
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,240
literally sorghum, Milla and
cassava were the main food

844
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,440
product eaten in the country.
It's now shifted, at least in

845
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,560
the urban centers, to bread and
noodles.

846
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,600
Gross and Nigerian farmers
couldn't compete.

847
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,840
And it's all imported.
As someone with ciliacs, I would

848
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,600
say that that's offensive to me
to just have to eat bread and

849
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,080
noodles.
Sounds like terrorism to me.

850
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,520
Palm oil, palm oil used to be
Nigeria's pride, used to be a

851
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,160
major exporter of palm oil, No
more, no more.

852
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,000
And so then one of the things
you notice about the so-called

853
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,080
third world is you have these
cities, these massive, large

854
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,640
cities like Lagos of 20 million
people or Cairo of 18 million

855
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,560
people.
And you can duplicate this in

856
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,760
one third world's country after
another.

857
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,600
That's not organic growth,
that's not natural.

858
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,160
And if you go back a few
decades, it didn't used to be

859
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,120
like this.
And it has to do with

860
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,160
imperialism and the food
companies and the oil companies

861
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,760
and all of them destroying these
societies.

862
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,520
Most of these people used to be
peasants living in rural areas

863
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,280
or living in smaller cities all
over those countries.

864
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,040
What happens is once you've
destroyed the agriculture of

865
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,960
these societies and again, not
replaced it by or modernized,

866
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,160
you just destroyed it, these
people have to go somewhere.

867
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,680
And so they go to the cities
because there's nowhere else to

868
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,320
go.
And they live in the slums

869
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,600
because this isn't growth of
cities, because the cities have

870
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,240
become centers of production,
like 19th century, 18th century

871
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,160
Manchester or something like
that.

872
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,200
This is just because they became
dumping grounds of the rural

873
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,920
population that was destroyed by
imperialism.

874
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,840
And so, yeah, food is a weapon,
and it's a damn powerful weapon

875
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,600
because we all need it.
Was it Mike Davis who made the

876
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,760
point about the slum proletariat
in his book Planet of Slums?

877
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,000
Possibly.
Probably.

878
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,640
It's really fucking incredible
how they've destroyed these

879
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,760
societies.
Dude it's really really

880
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,080
depressing and sad and honestly
it really was a Pandora's box.

881
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,280
The more I read and the more I
learned the more evil became

882
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,280
uncovered and I'm like Oh my God
this is so bad.

883
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,960
And the middle men little these
processing companies have gained

884
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,960
so much power and influence.
Like everybody is being held

885
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,800
hostage by their wind.
Oh, they're being, they're being

886
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,440
held hostage really, by US and
European imperialism.

887
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,440
I mean, that's because.
Well, of course, yeah.

888
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,560
And I think the word weapon is
totally correct because they

889
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,360
don't only create these
practices with the goal of

890
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,000
gaining profits.
They do these practices with the

891
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,600
goal of creating dependency.
So like weakening certain

892
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,560
populations in order to create
even more profits.

893
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,080
So yeah, it's really nefarious.
And if you look throughout

894
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,640
history, this is not new.
This is something that goes back

895
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,480
to the sugar plantations.
It goes back to the Native

896
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,400
Americans.
It goes back to slave times.

897
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,760
Food is a means of control, and
food can be a weapon for sure.

898
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,800
So if we look at the Native
Americans, the one true part of

899
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,840
the story of Thanksgiving that
we got is that the Pilgrims

900
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,520
sucked at finding food and we're
totally starving that European

901
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,520
sellers were really, really bad
at feeding themselves when they

902
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,240
first got here.
And I know that of course,

903
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:47,480
genocide and expansion were on
the menu, but one of the big

904
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,800
motivators was starvation.
The settlers were starving, so

905
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,720
they stole agricultural land,
they stole grain, they stole

906
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:56,240
harvest.
And not only did it give them

907
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,560
the benefit of the calories, it
also weakens the Native American

908
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,280
tribes.
And that was part of the plan

909
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,640
for sure.
George Washington once made an

910
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,680
order that included the
statement ruin their crops on

911
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,920
the ground.
So in instances where they

912
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,000
couldn't steal their food, they
would just destroy it so that it

913
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,560
wasn't available to Native
Americans.

914
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,760
Similarly, there was an Army
general named Philip Sheridan,

915
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,240
and he's quoted as saying every
dead Buffalo is a dead Indian.

916
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:26,240
So Native American populations
that relied less on agriculture

917
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:29,120
and relied more on hunting were
also attacked through their food

918
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,200
systems.
They knew that Native Americans

919
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,840
relied on bison for a lot of
things, so they just decimated

920
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,240
the population even in instances
where they weren't using them

921
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,680
for food, because really what
they wanted was their pelts.

922
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,440
The animal skins were really
valuable, so they'd go take out

923
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,960
entire herds of bison and just
leave the meat to rot on the

924
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,520
ground.
And that was considered good

925
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,000
policy because it meant that it
was hurting Native Americans.

926
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,960
Yeah, one of the books that we
read in preparation for this

927
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,120
episode had that same title ruin
their crops on the ground.

928
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,280
The quote from George
Washington.

929
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:06,520
It's a book by Andrea Freeman.
I definitely recommend it.

930
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,320
It's a really, really great
history of how food has been

931
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,040
weaponized throughout the
history.

932
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:16,280
Of the US and each and each
chapter is extremely rich and

933
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,640
written in a very accessible way
and easy to understand.

934
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,320
And there's so much packed in
there.

935
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,840
And she does spend a lot of time
talking about the history of

936
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,000
food oppression in terms of
indigenous populations.

937
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,560
And like, Cam was talking about
slaughtering bison to contain

938
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,400
and control the Native American
population.

939
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,400
Just going throughout history
like way after that rations,

940
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:39,000
right?
Like.

941
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,440
Yeah, totally.
So as a Native American,

942
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,400
agricultural land was destroyed,
and as they were pushed onto

943
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,480
reservations, they became
dependent on the American

944
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,200
government for food culture.
That was once rich, you know, 5

945
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,240
different varieties of corn
eating all of these different

946
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:58,600
kind of oysters and lobsters and
all of this really diverse stuff

947
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,640
that came from the land.
Now they were living on

948
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,480
reservations and their source of
food was ration boxes.

949
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:08,280
Commodity ration boxes were
given to reservations by the US

950
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,920
government.
And remember those surplus crops

951
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,360
we talked about the ones that
the government was buying.

952
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,560
That was what was going into the
ration boxes.

953
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,320
So it was the scraps, you know,
it was what was leftover that

954
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,680
the farmers found the least
desirable for sale.

955
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,720
And what was in those box most
commonly was flour and flour

956
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:30,480
that was infested by insects.
So they received Weevil infested

957
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,480
flour and they figured out that
they could still use that flour

958
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,600
if they deep fried it.
And that's where fried bread

959
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,120
comes from.
Fried bread is a Native American

960
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,360
staple to this day.
It can be prepared, savory or

961
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:42,800
sweet.
There's a bunch of toppings on

962
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,520
it.
So this becomes one of the

963
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,440
staples of the Native American
diet.

964
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,960
And guess what eating fried
bread is really fucking bad for?

965
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,560
There's a lot of health
complications.

966
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,240
You know, it's obviously really,
really high in fat and low in

967
00:49:56,240 --> 00:50:00,240
nutritional value.
The life expectancy on many

968
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:04,680
Native American reservations is,
get this guys, 40 fucking 8.

969
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,800
So as the Native Americans were
estranged from their source of

970
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,960
food and they became reliant on
the government, the government

971
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,440
doesn't provide high quality
food.

972
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,640
Even to this day, most
reservations don't have

973
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,200
supermarkets.
They have stores that were once

974
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,560
commodity stores supported by
the government that have become

975
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,800
trading groceries or, yeah,
trading posts or like gas

976
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,800
stations.
So Native American reservations

977
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,880
are known to be food deserts in
in many, many cases.

978
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,880
Well, they became these dumping
grounds for all those surplus

979
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,560
commodities, and that causes the
malnutrition and the obesity and

980
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,560
diabetes and all the other
things that we see.

981
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:40,960
Yeah.
And it's really interesting too,

982
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,680
because fry bread has kind of
gained this position within

983
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,520
Native American culture.
It's like a comfort food, and

984
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:50,800
it's weird to think that it
didn't exist before the European

985
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,880
settlers and it wouldn't have
existed if it wasn't for their

986
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,000
oppression.
It's pretty much a symbol of

987
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,960
colonial oppression.
And Cam, you ate your first fry

988
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,360
bread in 2025 on the Taos Pueblo
reservation.

989
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,200
Yeah, you added me.
I never had it before.

990
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,960
I we went to Taos and I was able
to have some fry bread and guys,

991
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,800
it's bad for you, but it's
fucking delicious, dude.

992
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,200
It's really good.
It actually sounds good.

993
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,800
No, yeah, it's like it's almost
like a funnel cake.

994
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,600
I would say the texture is a
little different.

995
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,000
It's a little bit more like
bubbly and light, right?

996
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,440
Yeah, totally.
But really, really terrible for

997
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,000
you.
Yeah.

998
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,520
One of the other things that she
talks about in the book ruin

999
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,560
their crops on the ground is
also the role of sugar and

1000
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,880
slavery.
Yeah, so I didn't really realize

1001
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,760
this, but sugar was a delicacy
for a long time.

1002
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,800
The human palate is geared
towards salt, fat, and acid, so

1003
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,640
sugar was one of the most highly
prized ingredients you could

1004
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,720
get.
Before the 17th century in

1005
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:48,240
Europe, most people drank
fermented drinks a lot.

1006
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:52,000
Like wine was really popular.
Beer, ale, small beer, whatever

1007
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,160
the hell small beer is.
That kept coming up in my

1008
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:55,840
research.
They drank a lot of that.

1009
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,120
And obviously if you're having a
beer before work in the morning,

1010
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,800
not the best.
But as trading grew, they got

1011
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,040
coffee and they got tea, and
coffee and tea are stimulants.

1012
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,880
So now instead of having a a
drunk workforce, they have a

1013
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,600
workforce that's a little bit
more productive.

1014
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,560
So there's a lot of incentive to
popularize the drinks.

1015
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,440
And having access to sugar makes
bitter coffee more palatable,

1016
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,960
makes bitter tea more palatable.
So there was this huge, huge

1017
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,480
market emerging for sugar.
And colonists like Christopher

1018
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,600
Columbus realized that if they
scaled up farming, they would be

1019
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,360
able to meet that demand or be
able to exploit that demand.

1020
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,640
But the only way they would be
able to produce on that level is

1021
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,080
through human exploitation.
And that's where we get of the

1022
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:41,680
sugar plantations of the
Caribbean.

1023
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:46,080
They provided a lot of cheap
sugar, but that could only exist

1024
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,360
with human exploitation.
Bondage.

1025
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,680
Yeah.
By the way, small beer is beer

1026
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,520
that is less than 2% alcohol.
It's what people drank normally

1027
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:57,960
in place of water, because water
would get you sick.

1028
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,080
Yeah, water.
Apparently water was really

1029
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:01,880
dangerous and.
That was because it was

1030
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,680
untreated.
It was, it was not purified.

1031
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,880
And so it was full of bacteria
and people died all the time

1032
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,560
from drinking water.
So small beer was just, it's

1033
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,000
very, very low alcohol beer,
like sometimes only half a

1034
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,920
percent.
It's basically it's what you

1035
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,240
drank on every day.
So, so when you talk about

1036
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:21,040
laborers and what have you like
in England and other parts of

1037
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,480
the world drinking beer on a
daily basis, it was it's not the

1038
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:25,720
beer that we drink.
Yes.

1039
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,440
It's good to know, but the
fermentation process, like,

1040
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,120
kills the bacteria.
Yeah.

1041
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,840
And I think that's one of the
reasons coffee and tea also fit

1042
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:34,520
the bill is because you have to
boil that water.

1043
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:37,040
So that also helps with that
issue, yeah.

1044
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,160
So yeah, sugar is one of the
first real instances of

1045
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,040
industrialized farming that we
see.

1046
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,800
Yeah, and in addition to sugar
itself being part of the slave

1047
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,800
system in that way, there was
also the way that the slave

1048
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:57,200
ocracy and the enslavers used
food as a way of subjugating

1049
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:58,560
slaves.
Yeah, totally.

1050
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,600
So in addition to the Native
American population being made

1051
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,360
dependent on the American
government for food, slaves were

1052
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,760
also dependent for food upon.
And their slave masters and

1053
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,680
slave masters were really,
really careful to make sure that

1054
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,080
slaves had enough calories to
work, but not enough calories to

1055
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,040
rebel.
They really controlled their

1056
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,600
calorie intake.
Sometimes slaves were allowed to

1057
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,200
have small farms, but like I
said, they were really, really

1058
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,800
limited.
And slaves also received food

1059
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,040
based on how many calories they
needed to work.

1060
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:29,520
One of the things I read is that
if you were a slave that worked

1061
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,520
in the fields and had a lot of
heavy labor, that sometimes you

1062
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,200
would get a little piece of meat
for lunch.

1063
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:39,760
So the control of calories was
really fundamental to keeping

1064
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,240
slaves oppressed.
Controlling calories?

1065
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:46,000
That sounds also like Israel.
Israel and Gaza.

1066
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,880
I've actually heard that saying
use for Gaza too, to give them

1067
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,400
enough to eat or not to.
That's a that's not a myth, it's

1068
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,680
it's actual policy.
Now they just starve them.

1069
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,480
Those were the good old days.
Yeah, and this is really

1070
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,200
calculated, like calorie
calculation was a part of it.

1071
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:04,280
And if I could just give slaves
a little shout out here, slaves

1072
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,320
were really fucking ingenious
with what they had.

1073
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,560
They got the worst produce, they
got the worst cuts of meat, and

1074
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,240
they were able to turn it into
beloved dishes.

1075
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:16,080
And even though slaves were at
the lowest rung of society, they

1076
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,600
worked in the kitchens of some
of the most powerful people in

1077
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,360
the South.
And the foods and the flavors

1078
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,520
that slaves created are the
basis of what we know as

1079
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,680
American cuisine, as slaves
contributed immensely to our

1080
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,080
farming.
Rice farming in Carolinas was

1081
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,120
failing until it was saved by
the knowledge of African slaves.

1082
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,040
Okra was an indigenous to the US
that was smuggled here by

1083
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,440
Africans.
Can you speak to the conditions

1084
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,800
of black Americans after the
destruction of slavery and the

1085
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,360
rise of sharecropping towards
the end of Reconstruction?

1086
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:52,440
So after slavery is abolished,
there's a huge hunger crisis in

1087
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,320
the South is we have all of
these people who have no

1088
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,160
employment, no money, and like,
you know, nothing to sustain

1089
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,480
their families on.
So formerly enslaved people

1090
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,360
start trying to do what they can
to feed themselves.

1091
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,480
They go to local rivers and
lakes and they go fishing.

1092
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,520
They do hunting.
But in response to this, local

1093
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,880
governments create all these
laws that bar them from doing

1094
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,280
that.
So here again, we see food used

1095
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,600
as as a way to kind of control
populations.

1096
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,720
So they made it so that you only
can go fishing with certain

1097
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,360
licenses or you only can get
certain types of fish and the

1098
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:27,760
same thing with hunting.
So by pushing the former slaves

1099
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,560
into this desperate situation
where they were hungry and

1100
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,040
couldn't feed themselves, that's
what pushed people back into

1101
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,720
share coppering.
So people who were so desperate

1102
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,720
went back into systems of
exploitation just because they

1103
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:41,680
had no other choice.
Former slaves who moved N were

1104
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,280
also having a really hard time
because they were going into

1105
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,720
cities, which inherently create
more food dependence.

1106
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,000
You know, they can no longer
grow a couple of vegetables in

1107
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,160
their backyard.
They can't go hunting for, you

1108
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,920
know, small game.
So now they're really restricted

1109
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,800
to city diets, which are
obviously less fresh and just

1110
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,440
kind of assimilating to new
eating styles.

1111
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:05,240
Yeah.
And I would imagine that's also

1112
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:08,880
very much tied to the betrayal
of the black population after

1113
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,760
the destruction of slavery in
the Civil War, namely the

1114
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,920
refusal to grant land to the
former slaves, which was the

1115
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,840
main driving force driving them
into sharecropping.

1116
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,440
Yeah, it ensures their
dependence.

1117
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:21,920
They cannot make their way
alone.

1118
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,520
So it kind of forces them back
into the situation and through

1119
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,520
hunger, through just our base
needs.

1120
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,760
One of the things when you were
talking about the social and

1121
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,560
economic and political and
everything control that the

1122
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:37,720
enslavers had over black slaves
reminded me of how the

1123
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,000
government uses SNAP benefits as
a tool of control.

1124
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:46,200
And they, these are just really
meager, minimal benefits to 40

1125
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,720
million people, I think who rely
on SNAP benefits today, 16

1126
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:54,040
million of them are children.
But basically work requirements

1127
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:58,520
are attached to SNAP benefits.
And so it's based on this idea

1128
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,000
that social assistance, you have
to earn it, right?

1129
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,360
Like if you're quote, UN quote,
lazy, you're not going to get

1130
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:04,840
it.
Yeah.

1131
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:06,280
And you?
Just have to be in such a

1132
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,920
desperate situation to receive
SNAP benefits.

1133
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,960
It's not like you have to be
poor to get SNAP benefits.

1134
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,800
You have to be so poor to get
SNAP benefits.

1135
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,800
You need to make 130% of the
federal poverty line to be able

1136
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:20,360
to be eligible for SNAP
benefits.

1137
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,720
Yeah.
And so it's basically like if

1138
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,640
you're poor, it doesn't have to
do with your social

1139
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,840
circumstances or race or how you
grew up or your economic

1140
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,360
situation.
It's you, you made bad choices

1141
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,160
or you know you're not capable.
And so it just reminds me so

1142
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,480
much of social control and
requirements that the slave

1143
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:42,200
ocracy would put on slaves.
Yeah, and it's such bullshit

1144
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,000
because the only reason people
need SNAP benefits is because

1145
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,320
their wages suck.
So we're really just paying the

1146
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,360
difference in what people should
be making for these companies,

1147
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,520
you know, so people can actually
afford food.

1148
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,560
And like, the eligibility
requirements are shifting

1149
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,840
constantly.
They're set by the Congress, who

1150
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,400
has a lot of power to say how
many people are going to get

1151
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,120
assistance and how many are not.
And you use the word meager to

1152
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,800
describe that assistance.
And I would say, yeah, that's

1153
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,680
totally, 100% true.
Because if you look at it, on

1154
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,560
average, SNAP benefits provide
people about $6 a day.

1155
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:17,280
So I don't know how anybody can
eat on $6 a day in this economy.

1156
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,920
And there's all these other
weird restrictions, like if

1157
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,280
you're a student, you can't get
SNAP benefits.

1158
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,760
If you're unemployed, you can't
get SNAP benefits.

1159
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,000
You have to be working at least
30 hours a week, which is kind

1160
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,480
of like, well, of course you
need SNAP benefits if you're

1161
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,840
unemployed.
If you're an immigrant, you

1162
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,960
cannot get SNAP benefits.
I think that's something that's

1163
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,720
misunderstood a lot.
A lot of people on the right,

1164
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:39,880
that's one of their points of
contention, is that immigrants

1165
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,000
are getting social benefits, but
SNAP is not one of them.

1166
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:44,880
Yeah.
So there's just a lot of

1167
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,040
requirements.
The requirement that you have to

1168
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:52,280
work, yeah, to get SNAP benefits
is a tacit admission by the

1169
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,360
American government that the
ruling class that they serve

1170
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,840
will not pay people enough.
No, they're subsidizing wages

1171
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,080
for companies that are making
record profits.

1172
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,760
It's really it's awful, it's
disgusting and it makes no sense

1173
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:08,640
you if to be working 30 hours a
week and still be 130% at the

1174
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:10,080
poverty line.
It's nonsensical.

1175
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,360
It's obscene.
It is.

1176
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:15,960
It's obscene and it captures how
much this the ruling class in

1177
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,600
this country, the government,
both Democrats, Republicans,

1178
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,560
despise the population.
Yeah, SO pays poor wages and

1179
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,320
then blames people for needing
help.

1180
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:26,400
Yeah.
And then meanwhile, on top of

1181
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,320
that, all of the dependency,
even in things like the school

1182
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:34,960
lunch program, which also are
most of the kids who rely on

1183
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,080
school lunch are poor, which are
disproportionately Black and

1184
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,320
Indigenous and Latino.
If they have to eat the food in

1185
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,880
the cafeteria, those are also
commodity foods.

1186
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:48,720
So those are like, you know,
dairy and, and corn and wheat

1187
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,560
also.
And that has a direct impact on

1188
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,320
health outcomes.
And then you live in a country

1189
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,400
where health insurance is not
secured and costly.

1190
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,480
So it's just another stab,
another assault on the working

1191
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,720
class population.
Exactly.

1192
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:11,320
I think there's multiple ways to
talk about food oppression and

1193
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:15,480
we barely scratched the surface
in this episode.

1194
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:20,560
There's so like, we could have
like multiple podcasts about

1195
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,240
this, but I think a lot of
people will often use a term

1196
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,840
food insecurity as if it's a
policy question.

1197
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,480
I was actually going to make a
joke about how Trump's

1198
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,400
philosophy is make America
hungry again.

1199
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,440
But of course, the working class
in the oppressed.

1200
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:34,960
Were always.
I mean, that's been a philosophy

1201
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:35,960
for way before.
Trump.

1202
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,200
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

1203
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,400
But I don't know.
I think the question which

1204
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,960
Lenin, the leader of the Russian
Revolution, posed is what is to

1205
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:46,120
be done, right?
So I think that's the way to

1206
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,600
conclude this episode is what is
to be done.

1207
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,160
And I was thinking about it and
I was like, well, I guess my

1208
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,600
solution is just feed them.
Just feed them.

1209
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,280
It's not that hard like it's.
Really not that hard.

1210
01:01:58,320 --> 01:01:59,720
It's just like driving a couple
miles.

1211
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,680
I know from freaking experience.
Band-Aid solutions don't work.

1212
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,880
But then like if your solution
is well, let's demand that the

1213
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:11,280
food and agricultural
corporations take all their

1214
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,200
profits and help people, like
that's completely utopic.

1215
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,760
Well, actually the solution is
not complicated at all.

1216
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:20,840
Like there is plenty of food.
Yeah, it's not complicated, but

1217
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:24,160
will it ever be accomplished
under our system of incentives

1218
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,040
is the question.
I think one of the things that

1219
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,840
motivated us to do this show is
to talk about resistance, how it

1220
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,960
exists and how impactful
different types of resistance

1221
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,200
are.
There's a lot of really awesome

1222
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,960
people who care about this issue
and who are fighting really,

1223
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:40,840
really hard inside and outside
of the system.

1224
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,840
Inside of the system, there are
a lot of activists who are

1225
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:45,960
trying to influence what goes
into the food bill.

1226
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,320
There's a Native American
activist named Marcus Grignon,

1227
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:52,040
who's part of the Monemi tribe
in Wisconsin.

1228
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,360
He's a dope guy, and he's
working hard to, you know, get

1229
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:57,720
some justice for Native
Americans and to get

1230
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,840
supermarkets onto reservations
and to have distribution systems

1231
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,520
for Native American products.
But if we look at the farm bill

1232
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,800
and all of the different players
who are trying to influence it,

1233
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,840
the activists and the small
farms are ants and the

1234
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:16,880
conglomerates are giants.
Does the amount of power they

1235
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,760
have to influence the bill is
totally different?

1236
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,920
And if I'm going to be real, I
don't think legislation stands a

1237
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,040
chance.
There's just too much of A power

1238
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:28,880
discrepancy between different
interests and the little guy can

1239
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,680
never stand up against the Agri
business.

1240
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,120
So I don't really feel like
there's much hope for

1241
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,400
legislating us out of this
conundrum.

1242
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,760
I think that there needs to be
fundamental change and that it

1243
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,640
can't happen just by amendments
until legislation.

1244
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,640
And a big way that people are
working outside of the system is

1245
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,440
through mutual aid, through
community fridges and food

1246
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,520
distribution programs like the
one I was mentioning.

1247
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,000
But again, I think that these
have a really, really limited

1248
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,160
potential.
My overall conclusion is that

1249
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,680
under capitalism, I don't think
this can change.

1250
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,360
I think that we need fundamental
structural change and as long as

1251
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:05,040
profits are the driving force,
it's not going to happen.

1252
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:09,920
I agree you can pass any
legislation you want and it will

1253
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,800
not fundamentally change the
situation because as long as

1254
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,320
food is produced for profit,
everything is going to be geared

1255
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,880
towards maximizing that profit.
So to use, let's use Europe as

1256
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:25,200
an example, because people will
sometimes point to Europe as

1257
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,520
having eliminated the use of
certain methods of genetic

1258
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:33,000
modification, having eliminated
the use of certain chemicals

1259
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,800
that American companies use and
feed the populace here.

1260
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,720
And how much?
Suppose probably it's true

1261
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,120
healthier Europeans are than
Americans, even though they

1262
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,720
smoke and eat buttery food and
all that stuff.

1263
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,320
But these same European
companies and countries that are

1264
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:52,720
doing that have their own hungry
people and are themselves just

1265
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,920
as guilty as the Americans in
destroying agriculture cultures

1266
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,120
in the rest of the world because
they're also dominating.

1267
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,400
Maybe, you know, maybe they're
not doing it in their particular

1268
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,680
home country in the way the US
is doing it here.

1269
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:06,400
But they're happy to do it in
Nigeria.

1270
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:08,200
They're happy to do it in Egypt.
They're happy to do it in

1271
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,000
Ethiopia.
They're happy to do it wherever

1272
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,200
they can get their Indonesia,
wherever they can get their

1273
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:15,680
grubby hands.
It's fundamental to the system.

1274
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,320
There's certain problems in the
world that are really difficult

1275
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,840
to fix.
There's some that are actually

1276
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:23,960
not that hard.
In the US, you can fix

1277
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:28,760
homelessness really easy.
There's a lot of empty, empty

1278
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:30,680
living spaces in.
America, it's so annoying.

1279
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:36,960
You can fix world hunger pretty
easy because there's a lot of

1280
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,000
food, whatever quality you want
to say about it.

1281
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,600
But there's tons of food and the
only, and it's being produced

1282
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:47,000
and the only thing that needs
time is just the distribution

1283
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,840
points just to get it out to
people wherever they need it.

1284
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,720
But it's the social system.
Capitalism needs starvation.

1285
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:58,160
Yeah, it's the same social
system that when the British.

1286
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,680
Saw.
The Irish starving during the

1287
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:04,600
potato famine forced Irish
farmers to export food.

1288
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:10,200
It's the same social system that
when the Indian subcontinent was

1289
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:14,720
struck by a massive famine that
was partly, in large part

1290
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:18,120
engineered by the British, that
killed millions upon millions of

1291
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:23,080
people, the British saw it as a
way to weed out a troublesome

1292
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,760
population.
I go back to it's a weapon.

1293
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:30,360
And no, no ruling class is going
to let go of that weapon unless

1294
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:34,040
we get rid of that ruling class.
I agree with you, Ezra.

1295
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,600
I agree with everything you said
because people's need to eat is

1296
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:39,920
a fundamental weakness.
I was thinking throughout this

1297
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:45,520
episode of the fundamental human
drives, hunger, sex and death

1298
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,720
that we often talk about.
And I wanted to conclude the

1299
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,960
episode with a quote from Isaac
Deutscher, who was the

1300
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:56,800
biographer of Russian
revolutionary Leon Trotsky, in a

1301
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:00,080
presentation and a speech that
he gave on Socialist Man in

1302
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,840
1966.
And he says, may I remind you

1303
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,360
that Trotsky, for instance,
speaks of three basic tragedies,

1304
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,120
hunger, sex and death besetting
man.

1305
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,800
Hunger is the enemy that Marxism
and the modern labor movement

1306
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,480
have taken on.
In doing so, they have naturally

1307
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:17,880
been inclined to ignore or
belittle man's other

1308
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,880
predicaments.
But is it not true that hunger,

1309
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,240
or more broadly, social
inequality and oppression, have

1310
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,640
hugely complicated and
intensified for innumerable

1311
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,760
human beings the torments of sex
and death as well?

1312
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,640
In fighting against social
inequality and oppression, we

1313
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,480
fight also for the mitigation of
those blows that nature inflicts

1314
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,520
on us.
Yes, socialist man will still be

1315
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:45,120
pursued by sex and death, but we
are convinced that he will be

1316
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:48,120
better equipped than we are to
cope even with these.

1317
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:57,840
But we don't love anybody who
doesn't love.

1318
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:00,920
Us thanks for listening to
Unwashed and Unruly.

1319
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,920
That's the conclusion of our
first episode of 2026.

1320
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,720
Please do us a favor and give us
a rating or review today.