Iran Needs Nukes

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It's time for you and me to
stand up for ourselves.

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It takes it takes money to kill
bad guys.

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Welcome to unwashed and unruly,
where we're never neutral, just

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accurate.
Today we're talking about why

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Iran needs nukes and why it
should win against the sadist

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sociopaths of the US and Israel.
I'm your host Lola Michaels,

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joined by the mad historian Ezra
Saeed.

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Hey, Lola.
Hi, everybody.

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Our vibes regulator Cam Cruise.
What's up, guys?

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And today, we're joined by our
friend Armand Peruzzi, a Marxist

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and earth scientist who knows a
lot more than we do.

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Thank you for joining us,
Armand.

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Humble and great to be here.
Joining this wonderful podcast

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unwashedun-ruly.com.
The war against Iran was never

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about preventing a nuclear
threat.

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It was about crushing a country
that refused to kneel

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completely.
To US and Israeli interests,

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Washington and Tel Aviv are the
aggressors, threatening nuclear

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Armageddon while carrying out
another cynical regime change.

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Iran has shown tremendous
restraint after decades of

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provocation and murderous
sanctions.

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If Iran has the upper hand in
this war, we think that's good.

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The bourgeois media lies about a
fanatic enemy in Tehran, but

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who's really buying it?
The true nuclear crazies are

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steering the American war
machine.

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The most murderous and
destructive force on the planet

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after the 199192 collapse of the
Soviet Union got rid of the main

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counterweight to US hegemony.
Possessing nukes has become the

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only way a country can protect
its own sovereignty.

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The consequences of this
unprovoked war are huge.

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We first saw the Tomahawk
missile strike on a Iranian

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girls school, killing at least
175 people.

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Masses of civilians slaughtered,
cities carpet bombed,

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infrastructure destroyed in
Lebanon.

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Israel has killed thousands,
displaced over 1,000,000, which

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is around 20% of the population.
And with Iran sitting on 10% of

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the world's oil reserves,
everyone knows this war is going

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to blow up the entire global
economy, sending prices for gas,

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food, fertilizer and everything
else through the roof, hitting

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every single one of us where it
hurts.

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This nightmare could cost
hundreds of billions of dollars.

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And the people paying the bill
aren't the billionaires or the

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politicians.
It's everyday working people

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here and across the globe.
If you haven't guessed already,

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in today's episode we'll be
discussing how the real enemies

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are the tyrants and madmen who
run the system.

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The fight for Iran's survival
and for the future of humanity

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means a defeat for US
imperialism and the Zionist

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state.
Let's get this off the agenda.

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For decades, Iran's nuclear
program has been framed as some

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kind of near imminent threat,
and the Iranian regime has

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consistently said its enrichment
efforts are not aimed at

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building a bomb.
The International Atomic Energy

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Agency, the IAEA, reported no
credible evidence of an active

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weapons program.
So what's really behind the

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imperialist lies here?
I want to make it clear that

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this isn't just Trump.
The Democrats and the

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Republicans might disagree on
the means, but the end goal is

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the same, which is total
supremacy in the oil rich

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region.
Both parties are hawkish on

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this, and basically since the
aftermath of the 1979 Islamic

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Revolution, they've carried out
another kind of warfare against

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Iran.
That's economic warfare in the

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way of crippling sanctions.
The sanctions date back to Jimmy

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Carter, and they've cost
hundreds of billions of dollars,

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starved and destroyed industry,
medicine.

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So if we know that the claim
about nuclear weapons is a

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smokescreen here, kind of a
blueprint to destroy Iran, we

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know that Israel, the ruthless
Zionist state with the goal of

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completely annihilating the
Palestinian people, they're the

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only new nuclear armed state in
the region.

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Meanwhile, the US rulers have
enough nuclear firepower to

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destroy humanity many times
over, and they're the ones who

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have used nuclear weapons
against Hiroshima and Nagasaki

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in 45.
So I would actually argue that

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Iran needs nukes as a deterrent
in this case.

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What do you guys think?
Historically, revolutionary

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Marxists have taken the position
that Iran has the right to

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nuclear weapons and the
necessary means of transporting

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the nuclear warhead in an effort
to secure its sovereignty.

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So the political question here
is that nuclear weapons are

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essential to ensure the
country's sovereignty against

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hostile imperialist powers that
historically have ruled over

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your land.
So the struggle against the

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imperialist rule is just as old
as the imperialist rule itself.

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It goes back to the history of
Britain ruling over Iran and

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prior to that was to the north.
It was Czars army that occupied

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the Iranian north and then the
British occupied South and prior

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to that it was the Portuguese
that controlled the Gulf about

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400 years ago.
So the imperialist rule and

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subjugation has 400 years old
history and resistance to that

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also goes to 400 years.
So to answer your question, now

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there are voices from inside of
Iran in regards to the

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sanctions.
They point out that Iran has

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become self-sufficient and
they've had their own industrial

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revolution in terms of missiles,
technology, drone technology.

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They've made significant
advances despite the sanctions.

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So that is the crux that that
has created these conditions

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where people have to take sides.
And this is one of those

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questions that how you reply to
it shows whose side you are.

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And I've actually posed this
question to several groups of

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Iranians in diaspora.
The first group laughed at it.

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So these people obviously do not
understand the sentiments of

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Iranians for independence.
They see imperialism as superior

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and Islamic regime as like this
heinous thing, the most heinous

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thing on earth.
Their attitude is almost

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pathological to the point of
going and asking for the country

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to be bombed.
And and if I could just ask

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Arman, are these people you're
talking about, are they young

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people who grew up in the US?
Are they people who moved from

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Iran as like older people?
Like what is?

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What is their generation above
all of the above?

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So for example, one of my close
relatives who is a recent

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immigrant, she has the same
position as if like they speak

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the same language politically.
Like they all said, well, the

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worst thing that can happen in
this war is the Islamic regime

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stays in power.
That's the worst thing for them,

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right?
And then I posed it to another

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group of people, one who is more
of Iranian and, and has a more

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of a historical viewpoint.
She was like, hell, yo, they

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need nuclear weapons because
it's a matter of sovereignty.

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So this war has polarized
everybody.

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This other woman was telling me
that they had a gathering of 40

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Iranian women.
And after half hour, the whole

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thing broke into a huge brawl
between the monarchy supporters.

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And they had to actually, like,
physically intervene and

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separate them from, like, a
first.

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Oh my gosh.
But we can talk a little bit

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more about the the monarchists
and like where they come from

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and stuff.
But I'm curious to get Ezra's

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take also on this.
Well, I think I would begin with

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a quote from the Bolshevik
leader Lenin at the beginning of

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the First World War where he
wrote if tomorrow Morocco were

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to declare war on France, India
on England, Persia or China and

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Russia and so forth, those would
be just defensive wars

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irrespective of who attacked
first.

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And every socialist would
sympathize with the victory of

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the oppressed, dependent,
unequal states against the

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oppressing, slave owning,
predatory great powers.

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And I think that for anybody who
styles themselves as an opponent

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of American imperialism, that
has to be the starting point.

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So as you pointed out, Lola, the
collapse of the USSR through

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capitalist restoration has
really meant that the only thing

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left for sovereignty is nuclear
weapons.

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When Gaddafi gave up his nuclear
weapons program, he ended up

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with a bayonet up his ass.
Quite literally.

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Saddam Hussein and Iraq were
invaded and overthrown precisely

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because they didn't have weapons
of mass destruction.

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But nobody fucks with North
Korea because they have nuclear

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weapons.
This is, to me, not only a

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polemic against the United
States and the Western

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imperialist powers, but also the
Iranian government.

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If Iran wants to sustain its
sovereignty, it needs nuclear

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weapons so that this insanity
can stop.

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And they say they're not
developing nuclear weapons.

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I think I believe them because
they haven't for more than 20

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years.
If there's one thing that comes

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out of the assassination of
Khamenei, who issued that fatwa

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against the development of
nuclear weapons, it's that I

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hope the fatwa has died with
him.

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Because Iran needs nukes not to
attack anybody, but to simply

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maintain its sovereignty against
both the Americans and the

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sociopath who run the state of
Israel.

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I wanted to listen to some of
the the smokescreen, the pretext

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for for this war.
And the first clip that we have

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is Secretary of State Marco
Rubio.

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And this was him addressing the
press.

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This is on February through
25th, so it was a couple days

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before the US and Israel
launched this year's attack.

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And so reporter basically asks,
what do you expect in terms of

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negotiations, right?
Because we're told that it was

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Iran, not the US, that was
negotiating in bad faith.

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And you'll see basically that
it's full of contradictions.

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What he says, like Iran's
program was obliterated, but

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they're close to bombing us.
And, you know, kind of like they

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said Iran was a week away from
from attacking the US.

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Like for the last 20 years,
they've been saying that.

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Yeah, exactly.
So let's just take a listen and

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then we can comment.
But I want you to understand and

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everyone should know that Iran
poses a very great threat to the

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United States and asked for a
very long time.

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They are in possession that
first and foremost, after their

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nuclear program was obliterated,
they were told not to try to

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restart it.
And here they are.

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You can see them always trying
to rebuild elements of it.

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They're not enriching right now,
but they're trying to get to the

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point where they ultimately can.
The other thing I would point

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you to, however, is that Iran
possesses a very large number of

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ballistic missiles, particularly
short range ballistic missiles

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that threaten the United States
and our bases in the region and

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our partners in the region and
all of our bases in the UAE,

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Qatar, and Bahrain.
And they also possess naval

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assets that threaten shipping
and try to threaten the US Navy.

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So I want everybody to
understand that.

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And beyond just the nuclear
program, they possess these

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conventional weapons that are
solely designed to attack

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America and attack Americans.
If they so.

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Choose to do so.
These things have to be

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addressed.
You like that he like missed his

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talking point there.
He was like they're developing

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nuclear weapon.
I mean, I mean we destroyed it.

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We just.
Keeping up with Trump's

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pronouncements is a very
difficult job.

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That's very true.
It's notable that basically what

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they're talking about is
disarmament.

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To disarm Iran, make it
defenseless.

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But the problem is that Iran
moved its country toward U.S.

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military bases.
I was actually confused about

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that, like when he was saying
that they were built

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specifically to target America
and like, we built all these

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bases like around them.
What is he talking about?

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He's not completely wrong.
Here's what I mean by that. the

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US built all these bases.
The Sunni Arab Gulf regimes, who

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are ashamed to the human race,
allowed their countries to to

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house all these bases.
And Iran knew what that meant.

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And so they developed a missile
program to do what you were

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seeing them doing.
But it's a purely defensive

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missile program.
It's really interesting too that

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all of these countries cozy it
up to the US under the idea that

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the US is going to protect them
and now having the bases just

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has made them targets and done
the exact opposite of what the

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intention.
Was.

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You know, these things would
make sense if we make some

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historical connections.
For example, during the Iran

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Iraq war, Iraq has had this
Soviet May missiles.

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These were like huge missiles
with no guiding systems.

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00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,720
So they would just fire this up.
This is before the age of

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00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,560
digital technology.
Everything was analog, not

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00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,960
precise, and the Iraqis used it
against Iran.

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00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,000
So the missile technology has
evolved.

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00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,880
You know, Iranians have had good
20 years.

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00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,920
Once they realize that they'll
be attacked.

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00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,800
That was just about 20 years ago
post Iraq invasion, that it was

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00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,360
made clear that they'd be the
next target.

240
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,880
So Iranians have had more than
20 years of developing this

241
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,040
missile technology in the
digital age, where some of the

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00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,120
intelligence is fed to them by
the Chinese or the Russians.

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00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,040
You know, they've taking all of
the radar installations.

244
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:33,280
And so that's a reference to
these bases that Americans have

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00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,640
built in the past 20 years.
Going back to how we kicked off

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00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,440
the episode talking about the
nuclear program, where it

247
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,480
usually gets talked about only
in terms of weapons.

248
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,000
But as you pointed out, the
nuclear program is completely

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00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,000
tied up with national identity
and pride, you know, building

250
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,840
scientific and technological
capacity.

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00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,760
There's an element of proof that
a country can, can have this

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00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,080
kind of technology despite
sanctions, despite isolation.

253
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,920
And the scientists, the nuclear
scientists who have been

254
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,640
targeted and assassinated,
they're on the front lines of

255
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,840
this in terms of promoting
self-sufficiency.

256
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,680
And then there's the other
question of what nuclear tech is

257
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:21,880
used for, which is like mapping
underground resources, finding

258
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,080
oil, gas and mineral deposits,
and then in terms of nuclear

259
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:31,600
power, stabilizing electricity,
reducing reliance on fossil

260
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,120
fuels.
So I just think some of that

261
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,120
stuff is really important to
know about in terms of what this

262
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,280
nuclear program is really about,
what what it means not only

263
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,840
politically and historically,
but practically.

264
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,600
They've had developed nuclear
technology in medicine where you

265
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:54,000
send these isotopes to have an
internal view of various organs.

266
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:59,080
So this nuclear technology in
medicine is quite advanced in

267
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,960
Iran.
Then there is the nuclear power

268
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,600
plant in Boucher, which
ironically, Americans sort of

269
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,280
initiated it to build this
nuclear technology well back

270
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,840
then.
I think is this a part of the

271
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,160
Atoms For Peace project?
I think that that they reached.

272
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,440
Yeah, right.
Yeah, The Atoms For Peace.

273
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,760
And now all of that is out the
door because it really lost its

274
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,240
whole historical context after
the collapse of Soviet Union.

275
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,440
None of these things really
matter because the imperialists

276
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,520
now they have every hand and
doing whatever, you know, there

277
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:40,240
was like No Fear of military or
political retaliation by the

278
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,760
Soviets.
So it's a whole different period

279
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,640
where they're right.
Sovereignty is closely tied to

280
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,480
your right to develop these
technologies and ensuring the

281
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,040
military means to be a sovereign
nation in the face of

282
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,760
imperialist domination, both
presently and historically.

283
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,319
So the Iranians have proved that
they can defend themselves

284
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,800
effectively, and that's a win
for the for the oppressed all

285
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,640
over the world.
Just a point of caution.

286
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,480
I mean, the war is not over.
I mean, let me start by saying

287
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,599
playing big ass hats off to
Iran.

288
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,880
They are facing the world's most
powerful military and it's rabid

289
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,640
dog, the USS Israel aircraft
carrier.

290
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,960
They are facing a bunch of
demented, fusillanimous,

291
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,920
despicable Arab regimes in the
Persian Gulf.

292
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,320
And they have not only held
their own, there's a quality

293
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,080
where you watch them and they're
playing three-dimensional chess

294
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,920
while the Trump administration
is just learning to play.

295
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,480
Shoot some ladders, you know, so
big ass.

296
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,200
Hats off.
Having said that, I find it very

297
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,360
hard to imagine the US winning
this war.

298
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,440
But I also find it very hard to
imagine the US just saying we

299
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,880
lost the war and that's where
the danger lies.

300
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,280
You're talking about two nuclear
armed powers.

301
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,760
I can imagine in particular that
the Tel Aviv regime is

302
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,000
telephoning the Washington
regime on a daily basis, saying

303
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,200
can we just drop a tactical
nuclear strike and take care of

304
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,160
this, or the US might come up
with it on their own.

305
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:23,520
The American military is very
powerful.

306
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,760
What it really comes down to in
the end is a question of how

307
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,240
much is the US willing to take
in terms of losses and in terms

308
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,320
of the destruction of the world
economy and the American economy

309
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,640
in turn.
So we will see.

310
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,560
But having said all that, God
damn Iran, they have shown that

311
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,880
these beasts are not invincible
and can be stopped.

312
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,800
I think that also points to, to
the extent that there have been

313
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,440
some quote, UN quote, divisions
in the administration about this

314
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,960
war, that a lot of it is about
whether or not they actually

315
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,960
thought they could win, right?
Nothing succeeds like success

316
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:06,920
and they were really really
ecstatic after their operational

317
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,920
success in Venezuela and I
believe they thought of that if

318
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,200
they murder 86 year old man with
cancer and a few other leading.

319
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,600
That's by the.
Way, yes, who, by the way,

320
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,280
clearly sacrificed himself as a
martyr because he knew everybody

321
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,320
knew he was the next target.
And, and, and it's very funny

322
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,400
reading all these articles about
all the massive intelligence to

323
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,760
track him down.
The guy was in his house.

324
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,160
Anyway, I believe they believed
that they would have a Venezuela

325
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,640
operation where if they would
assassinate or cut off the head,

326
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,120
they could either replace it,
that was somebody they like, or

327
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,640
find somebody they like or
somebody who's willing to work

328
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,560
with them.
What they miscalculated on,

329
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,440
which I cannot believe that
American intelligence doesn't

330
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,760
know this was Iran is not
Venezuela.

331
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,520
It is not cursed by being in the
Western Hemisphere.

332
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,520
This in the same hemisphere as
the US.

333
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,680
They have been preparing for
this forever.

334
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,320
To be perfectly fair, the
Iranians before the war started

335
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,920
said exactly what they were
going to do in response to the

336
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,960
war and have carried it out to
the tee.

337
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,440
So if you know.
It has not been a mystery.

338
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,440
I remember Trump saying
everybody was surprised.

339
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,880
Oh, all you had to do was listen
to what the Iranians said they

340
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,360
were going to do.
Well, you saw those fissures in

341
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,640
U.S. intelligence when they
questioned Director of National

342
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,920
Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard in
those hearings, the worldwide

343
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,680
threats hearing.
And Senator John Ossoff says,

344
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,200
can you, what is your take on
Iran being an imminent nuclear

345
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,280
threat?
And she basically gives up the

346
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,320
game here because she tries
completely to distance herself

347
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,320
from the administration.
Was it the assessment of the

348
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,760
intelligence community that
there was an imminent nuclear

349
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,640
threat posed by the Iranian
regime?

350
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,320
The intelligence community
assessed that Iran maintained

351
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,360
the intention to rebuild and to
continue to grow their nuclear

352
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,560
enrichment cable.
Was it the assessment of the

353
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,000
intelligence community that
there was a, quote, imminent

354
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,080
nuclear threat posed by the
Iranian regime, Yes or no?

355
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,960
Senator, the only person who can
determine and what is and is not

356
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,520
an imminent threat is the
president.

357
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,120
False.
This is the worldwide, This is

358
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:15,800
the worldwide threats hearing
where you present to Congress

359
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,400
national intelligence timely,
objective, and independent of

360
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,920
political considerations.
You've stated today that the

361
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,280
intelligence community's
assessment is that Iran's

362
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,880
nuclear enrichment program was
obliterated and that, quote,

363
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,720
there had been no efforts since
then to try to rebuild their

364
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,800
enrichment capability.
Was it the intelligence

365
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,040
community's assessment that
nevertheless, despite this

366
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,280
obliteration, there was a,
quote, imminent nuclear threat

367
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,360
posed by the Iranian regime?
Yes or no?

368
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,360
It is not the intelligence
community's responsibility to

369
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:49,600
determine what is and is not an
imminent threat.

370
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,280
I just want to say for the
record that I hate the term

371
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,880
intelligence community.
Well, politically speaking, this

372
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:04,600
just shows that they just had no
strategic plan other than

373
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,080
thinking that they're going to
have a regime change.

374
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,560
You know, they probably listen
to some bozo from Beverly Hills

375
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,280
who convinced them that the
average Iranian wants to

376
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,440
overthrow the regime.
Once you go in there and take

377
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,720
out the harmony, then people
will rise up and.

378
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,280
It's really wild, too, to think
that America is going to come in

379
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,840
and liberate people when we look
at the last, what, 30 or 40

380
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,360
years of regime change in the
Middle East where things just

381
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,720
get worse after we leave and
totally destroy everything.

382
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,680
So that we have a little bit of
a background on these, the

383
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,040
Iranian expat population, these
reactionary monarchists who want

384
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,320
to be BFF's with the West.
We had to subject Ezra to

385
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,520
looking for a clip.
I mean I wasn't going to send

386
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,680
Ezra out to these pro monarchist
protests.

387
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,520
No, you stay away.
If you are a decent reporter,

388
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,240
no, I'm just kidding.
But he did find a clip of a Grey

389
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,680
Zone reporter talking to some of
the folks at a rally full of

390
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,800
monarchist US and Israeli flags.
Well, if you don't mind, since I

391
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,320
had to go through this torture,
I actually want to play both

392
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,280
clips.
So the first clip is actually

393
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,760
not the protesters.
It's the king and waiting Reza

394
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,280
Pahlavi.
It's some kind of Fox News

395
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:28,480
interview begins by thanking the
US for murdering Iranian people.

396
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,840
So we'll start with that one.
Well, first of all, it's so good

397
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,560
to be back with you on the
program.

398
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,760
I would like to first say that I
joined millions of my

399
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,480
compatriots at home and abroad
who thanked President Trump from

400
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,480
this much needed intervention
that brings us so much closer

401
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,000
than ever to final victory and
liberation.

402
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,240
There was that school in Iran
that was bombed, 150 dead.

403
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,680
But you see this all as worth
it.

404
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,680
I mean, you think we should go
to the end?

405
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,320
Yes, Yes, it's worth it.
And that's why we are here.

406
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,840
We are going to protest.
Even if it was not an Islamic

407
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,840
regime missile, it was worth it.
Very, very worthy.

408
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:15,640
You would support Donald
Trump's, for example, sending

409
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,920
troops or sending more air
strikes to Iran.

410
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,760
Yeah, whatever Trump is doing,
it is helping us, of course,

411
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,280
100%.
There was also a report today

412
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,800
that he was considering sending
troops to Iran.

413
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,120
And you would support that?
Yes, I would support that.

414
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:32,320
Yes, because I believe he's
doing the right thing.

415
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,200
Donald Trump has been looking at
more options, air strikes, but

416
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,640
also sending troops to Iran.
Would you guys be supporting

417
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,840
that?
Yes, we will.

418
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,480
He's considering sending troops
in as well.

419
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,400
Is that something you'd support?
Actually, that's, that's what we

420
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,720
bond, yeah.
And I also see a lot of Israeli

421
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:50,160
flags.
Here.

422
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,480
I mean, this is also to protect
Israel from Iran as well.

423
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,160
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.

424
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,320
Thank you to President Trump and
Netanyahu for standing with

425
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,200
people.
If you had Donald Trump's ear

426
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,240
right now, you're in the Oval
Office private room.

427
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,040
What would you tell him to do?
Please, please finish the job.

428
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,640
Just finish it.
Whatever it takes.

429
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,920
Honestly, I, I haven't been back
to my country over 20 years.

430
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,200
I'm not planning to go back.
This is my country now.

431
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:24,320
America is my country.
And I know this is the best for

432
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,400
Americans and for Iranians.
In Iran, you're you.

433
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,200
You're not planning on going
back to no?

434
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:37,760
I mean, it takes a special kind
of sociopathic creep to thank a

435
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,400
foreign country for killing
their countrymen.

436
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,720
But you know, that is that is
the Iranian monarchist.

437
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,120
And these are the type of things
that I hear normally not from

438
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,520
online, and these are the type
of things that I have to fight

439
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,600
against.
The pathological anti Islam

440
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,040
obsession to equated with
fascism is truly sickening.

441
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:05,200
It has blinded these people to
the atrocities committed by the

442
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,360
imperialist, by the Zionist
regime.

443
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:11,920
They see those as justified and
being anti Islam.

444
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,880
So anti Islam, in their minds is
is is the ultimate thing that

445
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:21,360
Islam is more dangerous than all
of these other things combined.

446
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,080
These things are delusions.
None of it is actually true.

447
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,960
It disregards a lot of factual
things like the right of Iran to

448
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,320
self-defense.
Another important part is the

449
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,360
self loading that they see in
perilous as superior to their

450
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:42,480
backwardness.
It's their economic interest

451
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,360
too, isn't?
It and it's their economic

452
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:46,680
interest, but not for all of
them.

453
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,680
And most of them are parasites
anyways.

454
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,640
And it is a whole spectrum.
There's like their missions and

455
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,680
they're on side of Trump.
So for them, they don't have an

456
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,160
economical gain.
But then they come and say,

457
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,480
well, laws, they've destroyed
Iran.

458
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,280
They're against science.
And I have more scientific

459
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,160
freedom here, and therefore I'm
a side of Trump, which is crazy

460
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,640
because Trump in no way supports
science.

461
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,240
Exactly.
I I don't know man, those those

462
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,280
rockets landing where they're
supposed to land is a pretty

463
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,720
good implication of really good
science.

464
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,560
Yeah, look like good science.
They have a lot of good

465
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,800
scientists, you know exactly.
You know, the US likes to go on

466
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,640
and on about how these people
are run by a bunch of crazy

467
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,720
Islamic fanatics and and all
that stuff with leaving aside

468
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,960
that the US and Israel are both
have a lot of crazy Christian

469
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,520
and Jewish fanatics.
Theocratic regimes.

470
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,240
Yeah, in in the government in
Iran, more than 50% of all

471
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,680
university students are women.
And Iran is one of the leading

472
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,480
countries, if not the leading
country in the world of having

473
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,200
women in STEM.
Remember, we're in the US, where

474
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,360
Obama's former economic adviser
Larry Summers, and the former

475
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:03,560
head of Harvard University was
going around just 1520 years ago

476
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,160
saying there aren't enough women
in STEM because women's brains

477
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,440
don't allow for that.
Meanwhile, in Iran, that's where

478
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:11,920
you're going to find women in
STEM.

479
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,640
I was going to just point out
that Larry Summers is also in

480
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,880
the Epstein files.
Yeah, I mean, what they're

481
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,280
pointing to is that supposedly
that supposedly under the Shah,

482
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,600
women were more free.
Now, if you are part of a thin

483
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,960
elite of middle class urban
women, that's probably true.

484
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,360
However, for the vast majority
of women in Iran under the shop

485
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:38,040
before the 1979 revolution, they
were covered, barefoot,

486
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,000
pregnant, stuck in the villages
and illiterate.

487
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,000
So here's the statistic.
In the mid 1970s, approximately

488
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,080
30% of Iranian women were
literate.

489
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,320
Today, since 1979, that number
stands at over 90%.

490
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,680
And when you look at women in
the ages of 18 to 25, it's 99, 9

491
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,440
point something percent.
In other words, they have

492
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,240
conquered illiteracy.
And I mean, are women oppressed

493
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,520
in Iran?
Of course they are.

494
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,120
But it's a contradictory
situation.

495
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,200
This is not like Saudi Arabia.
This is not a place where women

496
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,560
need permission to go to school
or to drive, or this is not like

497
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,560
Afghanistan and the Taliban.
This is a fairly intelligent

498
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,000
government in terms of how
they've managed to organize the

499
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,480
society in such a way where they
can maintain a popular base.

500
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,040
Second of all, it really takes
a, well, to use our mom's words,

501
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,720
pathological sort of animal to
look at your country and say

502
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,160
vomit.
Yeah, the task of any class

503
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,920
conscious worker in Iran is to
make sure their guns are aimed

504
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,480
at the foreign invaders right
now to defend their sovereignty

505
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,640
and their country from the
Americans and the Israelis.

506
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,400
That is the first duty of every
class conscious worker, not only

507
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,920
in Iran but throughout the
world.

508
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,200
And these people are the enemies
not only if the Iranian masses,

509
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,280
but also of the American and
international working class and

510
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,080
oppress because they want to
strengthen the hand of the most

511
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,520
oppressive, degenerate,
disgusting ruling class on the

512
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,040
planet.
Since you mentioned the question

513
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,960
of the Shah and the installation
of the Shah, let's take a little

514
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,640
detour into that question.
And this hit job that was

515
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,280
orchestrated by the CIA and
British intelligence when Prime

516
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,440
Minister Mohammad Mossadegh
basically decided that Iranian

517
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,320
oil profits should actually
benefit Iranians instead of

518
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,600
patting the pockets of the Anglo
Iranian Oil Company, which is

519
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,240
now known as British Petroleum.
And the West responded with a

520
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:56,320
coup and they installed the Shah
and that habit regime spent 25

521
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,560
years running a blood drenched
regime enforced by the SAVAK.

522
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,160
Is that what it was called?
The, the, the secret police,

523
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,440
Right.
Yeah.

524
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:10,160
And that still really permeates
and haunts the Iranian psyche.

525
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,600
So yeah, let's let's talk a
little bit about Mossadegh and,

526
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,840
and some of that and why it was
such a direct ancestor to the

527
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,000
1979 Islamic Revolution.
Well before Mossadegh, the

528
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,720
imperialist, the British
particularly, they had installed

529
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:33,880
Shaw's father, Rizal Shaw as the
puppet regime that came to power

530
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,160
in a coupling against the
democracy movement.

531
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:44,640
The root of the Manolink goes
back to actually 1917 and 18,

532
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,160
where there was a coup by Rizal
Shaw that overthrew the

533
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,920
parliament.
The British came in and he

534
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,240
stopped that whole impetus for
bourgeois democratic revolution

535
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:01,760
in Iran to ensure that the
British Anglo Iranian Oil

536
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,400
Company has access to all
Iranian oil.

537
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:13,600
So the struggle for independence
goes back to 1917 all the way to

538
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,960
1953, where it was in the
context of the Cold War, in the

539
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,880
context of primary Americans
spearheading political and

540
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,800
military attack against the
Soviet Union, and Iran having

541
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,720
the longest border within the
Soviet Union was directly

542
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,080
impacted.
Why the existence of the Soviet

543
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,360
Union in terms of the upsurge of
nationalist movement?

544
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,640
So these bourgeois nationalists,
Sadaf himself, he was a

545
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,800
descendant of the last dynasty.
Well, John, he was like one of

546
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,720
the aristocrats.
He was landlord, he was the

547
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:59,360
leader of the National Front, a
front of bourgeoisie, you know,

548
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,040
whatever bourgeoisie it was,
which was mostly merchant, you

549
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,520
know, not even financial or
industrial.

550
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:11,320
So they came from a weak
political or economical stand,

551
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,840
but because the Soviet Union,
they had this kind of like the

552
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,000
opposite of nationalism to
nationalize the oil industry.

553
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,680
And if there was a head on
collision with British rule,

554
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,240
they imposed heavy sanctions on
him, crippled the economy,

555
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,360
caused a lot of political
turmoil.

556
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,000
It seems like Mossadegh was part
of that.

557
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,840
Also.
I'm glad you put in the context

558
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,600
of the Soviet Union that he was
part of that kind of post World

559
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,240
War Two wave of nationalist
leaders like Nasser in Egypt.

560
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,080
You know, we're like, try to
like, claw back some

561
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,320
independence for the colonial
masses.

562
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,120
And ironically Mossad, he was
pro America.

563
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,800
He was seeing British as the
downfall of an empire in demise

564
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,440
and America as a voice of
freedom and he genuinely

565
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,840
believed it.
Well, what a mistake.

566
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,200
Was it that?
Yeah, he learned the hard way,

567
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,600
but.
He learned the hard way.

568
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,040
Was it also that his National
Front kind of saw that the US

569
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,440
might be like fair, a fair ally
against Yeah, exactly.

570
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,840
The British and French, Okay.
Right.

571
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,639
It was definitely an ideological
bend toward imperialism, which

572
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,880
always proves fatal.
And Mossad there made that fatal

573
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,520
mistake, and that mistake
basically made him defenseless.

574
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,719
I mean, most of that believed
that, like Armand said that the

575
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,560
British were a declining empire,
the Americans were arising one

576
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,120
for decades or years rather,
before he even took power.

577
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:41,480
Iranian nationalists were trying
to get a better deal, just a

578
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,360
better deal with the British in
terms of the oil.

579
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,600
What set this off in a in a lot
of ways was Mossadegh saying

580
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,840
he's going to open the books of
what became British Petroleum,

581
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,159
because everybody knew that they
were cheating the Iranian

582
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,240
government out of massive funds.
And then when you go look at

583
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,120
Saudi Arabia, he saw that
Aramco, the Arab American oil

584
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,840
company, was sharing profits at
a 5050 basis with the Saudi

585
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,320
government, something that the
British were absolutely opposed

586
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,240
to doing.
So what you had was a situation

587
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:15,640
where the British were trying to
get the Americans to either

588
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,320
carry out a war or carry out a
coup to get rid of Mossadegh,

589
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,240
especially after he nationalized
the oil industry.

590
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,320
And at that time, under the
Harry Truman administration,

591
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,920
Truman was not going for it.
He was afraid that if you did a

592
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,560
coup or something like that, it
would strengthen the hand of the

593
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,320
Soviet Union and their ability
to intervene.

594
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:42,280
When Eisenhower came into power
in 1953 in the US and around the

595
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,440
same time Winston Churchill
became the Prime Minister, both

596
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,960
of them upped the ante.
And Eisenhower had the opposite

597
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,200
view, that if you don't
overthrow this guy, it will

598
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,760
strengthen the hands of the
Communists.

599
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,400
So for everybody, the measuring
stick was what will strengthen

600
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,880
the Communists and the Soviet
Union and what will weaken them.

601
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,960
The British wanted the coup
badly, argued for it, but they

602
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,960
couldn't do it on their own and
and it was the US who did it and

603
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,360
it wasn't like a one time thing,
it took about a week or several

604
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,640
days because it initially
failed.

605
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,920
When and when they could have
actually defended and defeated

606
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,400
the coup because they had the
political momentum.

607
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,600
They had the numbers.
The Tudor party closely

608
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,440
affiliated with the Soviet
Union, they had a large number

609
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,800
of cadre in the officers corps
of the Iranian army.

610
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,560
They had a huge working class
base.

611
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,440
So they could have easily
mobilized and defended.

612
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,280
But they didn't.
They basically stood still.

613
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,880
Arman was referring to the Tudor
Party, which was the Communist

614
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,880
Party in Iran, had a fairly
large base in the working class

615
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,720
and actually was in the officer
corps and in some ways one of

616
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,960
the pillars of the Mosaddek
government, including even

617
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,480
having ministers in there.
Leaving aside the Communists

618
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,920
shouldn't be in capitals
governments, but they did.

619
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,520
And for that week when the coup
initially failed, before it

620
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,840
succeeded, everybody, including
the Americans and the Brits were

621
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,760
wondering why, like thought
there was some kind of big trick

622
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,920
happening.
Why isn't Tuda on the streets

623
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,240
taking over things?
And it turns out what Tuta's

624
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:26,760
leadership was doing was
telegramming the Soviet Union,

625
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,360
asking for direction and getting
stonewalled.

626
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,360
Because at that point, the
Soviet Union was in the phase of

627
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,680
what you would call peaceful
coexistence, which meant that

628
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,240
they didn't want to challenge
capitalist rule anywhere, and

629
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:42,400
they thought it would be
detrimental to their interest to

630
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,640
do so.
And so they didn't want to upset

631
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,880
that balance and basically left
Tuda to hang.

632
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:56,200
And Tuda did, and Mosaddek was
overthrown and the Shah was

633
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,800
reinstalled into power.
And then you spoke to the rest.

634
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,360
A brutal regime for about 1/4
century that just annihilated

635
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,880
all forms of opposition.
I will say one other thing.

636
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,920
The mullahs who took power in
1979 did not cover themselves in

637
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,200
glory in 1953.
They were a bit split, but the

638
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,920
bulk of them were opponents of
Mosaddek.

639
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,680
The National Front included
mullahs, but many actually

640
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,480
abandoned it because they never
really cared about that stuff

641
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,000
too much, and a few actually
aided the efforts of the coup,

642
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,760
so they.
Were in the pocket of British.

643
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,240
Yeah, yeah, the British.
There were, there were splits

644
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:41,520
within the mullahs, yeah.
The the ones who went by the

645
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,200
coup, they were beefed up by
the.

646
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,160
I was just going to say one of
the things that people listening

647
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,000
to this should bear in mind is
everything that's Islamic is

648
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,840
today painted as pure evil.
However, there was a period in

649
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:59,320
time in the not too distant past
when the US actively worked with

650
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,360
Islamic political forces and
Islamic fundamentalists because

651
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:07,600
they thought and not
unjustifiably believed that they

652
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,520
could ally with them against
godless communists as well as

653
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,640
secular nationalists.
And you will find examples like

654
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,920
this all over the Middle East
and the Far East.

655
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,640
Afghanistan.
Afghanistan in the 80s,

656
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:24,080
Indonesia in 1965.
It happens over and over and

657
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,920
over again throughout the 20th
century.

658
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,640
Actually, most of the time the
US and the Islamic

659
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,480
fundamentalists were much more
allied than not allied.

660
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,160
They were the USS Freedom
fighters quote UN quote.

661
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,080
In Afghanistan, yeah.
It should be also highlighted

662
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,080
and emphasized that the
imperialist create these

663
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:51,040
conditions for backwardness
where they impede any type of

664
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,720
progress in culture and
technology.

665
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,200
They keep these societies
backwards.

666
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,120
So obviously both the
oppressors, internal oppressors

667
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,400
and imperialists benefit
directly from backwardness.

668
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,040
Because the imperialists create
the conditions for this

669
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:15,480
political slum to exist.
They ferment it, they popularize

670
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,960
it.
But it's a double edged sword.

671
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,760
You know, you make it strong and
then then it becomes

672
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,920
historically the voice of the
Iranian nationalism.

673
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:31,240
Now war has created this
condition where the imperialists

674
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,800
are at the losing end of the
stick and Iran is on the winning

675
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,200
part because politically what
what the imperialists were

676
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,520
hoping for was to overthrow the
regime.

677
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,560
It's getting stronger.
It seems like it's.

678
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,120
Getting stronger, so the Islamic
regime is not going to go away.

679
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,520
So we can talk about the Islamic
regime.

680
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:56,720
And I also know, Armand, from
your history as a Marxist, that

681
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:01,160
you have a lot to say about
1979, particularly the working

682
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,240
class aspirations for social
liberation, that there was a

683
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:08,760
defeat for the Iranian masses
and that workers and women and

684
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,680
oppressed minorities were
crushed by the clerical caste

685
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,840
under Khomeini and the mullahs.
Yeah, absolutely.

686
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:19,000
It's essential in the mass
uprising, in this reactionary

687
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,120
mass uprisings that was led by
the mosque.

688
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,680
Their slogan was independence,
freedom, Islamic Republic, and

689
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,440
the left went along with it.
They didn't oppose it.

690
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,600
The program of the left was the
two stage revolution.

691
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,080
So they didn't want to fight for
the proletariats to take power.

692
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,600
Instead they wanted to make
popular fronts with the

693
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,040
Islamists, with the national
bourgeoisie, basically national

694
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,640
bourgeoisie to come to power.
And then there'll be a period of

695
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,640
democracy, then there'll be a
socialist revolution.

696
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,200
So they actually acted on that.
And so that goes against that

697
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,080
whole theory that you hear it
from everybody that the mullahs

698
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,320
hijacked the revolution.
No, the two stage revolution

699
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,760
tailed the mosque.
And then when the Shah was

700
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,960
overthrown, the state was handed
over to the National Front, not

701
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,960
the Islamists.
Prime Minister Mazargon of

702
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,440
National Front became the 1st
Prime Minister.

703
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,040
The national bourgeoisie is so
weak politically they couldn't

704
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,720
contain the class struggle, but
the left betrayed it at every

705
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:38,320
turn.
The left betrayed the struggle

706
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,400
of women to defend their
democratic rights.

707
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,520
The left labeled it as not
necessary as a sidestep that

708
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,080
would weaken the anti
imperialist struggle.

709
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,800
So the mosque was the main anti
imperialist force and the left

710
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,440
tailed it.
So to answer your question, in

711
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:03,160
1979, the left instead of
mobilizing the independent all

712
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,840
workers at building the party
for workers government.

713
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,800
But because of the two stage
revolution, they had no program

714
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,880
for the working class to be
mobilized independently and

715
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,560
subsequently was left
defenseless and that created the

716
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,680
condition for the treat of the
working class and strengthening

717
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,040
of political slaw.
In my mind, yeah, I think you

718
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,920
could summarize it. 1979 posed
the potential of one of three

719
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,840
outcomes, either mass bloodshed
and the Shah remaining in power.

720
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,920
The other possibility was
actually a working class

721
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,120
revolution because it was on the
agenda, particularly with the

722
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,880
oil workers in the South.
And the third option, which is

723
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,440
what transpired, was the mullahs
coming to power.

724
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,280
And I think any revolutionary in
Iran at the time with the

725
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,520
program they should have fought
for is obviously beginning with

726
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,280
opposition to the Shah, but also
opposition to the mullahs and

727
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,880
instead fighting for working
class power.

728
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,000
The problem was that was not the
left's program, and the mullahs

729
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,920
offered the answer that the left
was incapable of offering.

730
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,800
And the left, instead of
counterposing its own answer,

731
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,600
tailed the mullahs.
And, yeah, the first Prime

732
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,640
Minister was a Mossadegh Arab
National Front Prime Minister.

733
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,760
But that was a period of
consolidation by the Islamic

734
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,600
government.
And once they consolidated, you

735
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,600
know, they purged their
opponents, including by shooting

736
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,120
them, whether they be
nationalist Mossadegh types or

737
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,040
communists or in some cases,
depending on the circumstances,

738
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,240
ethnic and national minorities
within Iran, like the Kurds.

739
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:40,160
The mosque is very strong, both
in terms of having these actual

740
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,920
institutions that provide a
solid ground for recording,

741
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,360
networking, mass gatherings, and
also historically they've been

742
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,880
the strength has been in land,
owning a lot of land gardens,

743
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,360
pistachio production, while the
national bourgeoisie has been

744
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,000
both politically and
economically weak.

745
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:06,200
The mosque on the other hand, it
did have the answer to hold the

746
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,960
whole state apparatus together
in in creating a armed force,

747
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,160
the Revolutionary Guards.
So Revolutionary Guards have

748
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,360
their fingers in all of these
aspects of society.

749
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,320
That's another thing, what the
left does, Iranian left more so

750
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,520
they equate this Islamic
theocracy rule where imperialism

751
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,880
like they're both equally
responsible or somehow they're

752
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,080
equal in politics or be and and
that's just not.

753
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,680
So yeah, we'll say that the
Islamic regime will be

754
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,440
overtrown, but perilism will
still stays intact.

755
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,960
You know, the Shah went,
imperialism stayed.

756
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,480
So Yep, imperialist nomination
precedes your demand to

757
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,000
overthrow the Iranian regime.
So I wanted to address next

758
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,120
something that a lot of people
have been raising and it

759
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,760
actually goes back to our very
first episode of this podcast,

760
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,640
US or Israel, Who's daddy?
And that's basically the idea

761
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,440
that Israel strong armed the US
into this war.

762
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,480
You know, who's is Israel, the
dog or the tail?

763
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,160
And it came up when Joe Kent,
who was the director of the

764
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,760
National Counterterrorism
Center, he resigned, said that

765
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,400
Iran posed no imminent threat to
the US And in his resignation

766
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,320
letter, he said, quote, it is
clear that we started this war

767
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,400
due to pressure from Israel and
its powerful American lobby.

768
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,000
So basically you have one side
of this idea that the tail

769
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,240
wagging the dog theory is
basically Israel's in charge.

770
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:41,160
You get this argument from like
the MAGA types who are using it

771
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,800
to bolster their idea of, you
know, America first, not Israel

772
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,440
first.
You're also getting it from

773
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,200
leftists, who I think are kind
of falling in the trap that the

774
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,880
US is this victim of Israeli
manipulation.

775
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,360
And then I think there's an
argument that we've made on this

776
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,960
podcast before, which is that
the US is still very much in

777
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,080
charge and Israel is a very
effective tool.

778
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,800
And that doesn't deny the fact
that the Zionist lobby is very

779
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,640
powerful, but we're basically
arguing that Israel is not

780
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,800
tricking the US.
The American imperialists have

781
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,840
always wanted a weakened Iran to
make sure that there's not a

782
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,800
challenge to US hegemony.
Some of the reason why this

783
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,840
debate frustrates me is because
it feels like it comes down to

784
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,960
whatever you think is supposed
to be the correct US imperialist

785
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,840
strategic interest.
And I just think there's not one

786
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,760
wing of the bourgeoisie, like
they share the same common class

787
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,880
interests, but they often have
different angles or ways to

788
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,040
achieve their goals.
So this came up particularly in

789
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,520
our interview with John
Mearsheimer, who is a very well

790
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,120
respected professor from the
University of Chicago.

791
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:53,360
He did an interview with Max
Blumenthal on the Gray Zone.

792
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,680
I have a lot of respect for both
of them.

793
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,000
I don't always agree with them.
But the background to this clip

794
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,520
that we're going to listen to
from this interview is that

795
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,760
Professor Mearsheimer
co-authored a book 20 years ago

796
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,000
about the Zionist lobby called
The Israel Lobby on the US

797
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,160
Foreign Policy.
It was very controversial at the

798
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,160
time, not so much anymore.
And I thought that this clip

799
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,160
kind of captured something.
Mearsheimer is arguing that US

800
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:22,280
support for Israel is unrealist,
meaning it doesn't help U.S.

801
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:27,000
National interest, but that it's
only driven by political

802
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,080
pressure from the lobby.
And that's what he's attributing

803
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,800
this current Iran war to, is
basically pressure from from the

804
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,600
Israel lobby.
So let's take a listen.

805
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,200
But if you think about it, the
argument that Steve and I are

806
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:47,160
making is that our relationship
with Israel is not in our

807
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,040
strategic interest.
Remember, I said before, Israel

808
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,440
is an albatross around their
neck.

809
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,840
That.
Contradicts the basic thesis of

810
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,040
my book and my writings more
generally on great power

811
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:05,320
politics and Steve's as well.
But it just goes to show you how

812
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:06,960
enormously.
Powerful.

813
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,760
The lobby.
Is, I mean, just Max and Aaron,

814
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,640
just think about the fact that
the United States recognizes

815
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,680
that if it has a peer competitor
in the international system that

816
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,320
it should worry about it's
China, right?

817
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,560
And This is why Hillary Clinton
enunciated in 2011 that we were

818
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,720
going to pivot to Asia.
China is seen as the most

819
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:33,560
important threat to the United
States inside of the national

820
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,920
security community.
Well, if you look at these

821
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:42,120
various wars that we're fighting
in the Middle East, and the

822
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,560
first one of course was the 12
day war last June, and now you

823
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:51,560
look at this conflict, it is
seriously eroding our capability

824
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:56,720
to contain China in East Asia.
We're pulling fads and patriots

825
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,640
out of South Korea and Japan.
This is truly remarkable.

826
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,600
We have been shortchanging East
Asia, we have been shortchanging

827
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,160
our containment policy in East
Asia for quite a while now

828
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,960
because of Israel, and the
situation is now only getting

829
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,320
worse.
From a strategic point of view,

830
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,440
from a realist point of view,
which of course is what Steve

831
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:25,240
and I purvey in our writings,
this makes no sense at all.

832
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,280
So our relationship with Israel
is a really cockamamie

833
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,640
relationship that is not in the
American National interest.

834
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:39,360
Look, it's so egregious that
this guy is actually prone war

835
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,800
against China.
I do want to clarify that he's

836
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,480
not so basically Mearsheimer.
He's known for this realist

837
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,040
theory.
And So what he's saying, he's

838
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,440
not arguing that China should be
contained, but he's saying that

839
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,800
the ruling class is in agreement
entirely with the desire to

840
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,000
contain China and that this war
is contrary to that.

841
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:00,800
That's what he says.
It's not exactly.

842
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:01,800
And that.
Yeah.

843
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,800
So tell me about that.
Well, it's not contrary to that

844
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,560
at many levels.
One, China is already involved

845
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,760
because it has interests in
protecting sovereignty of Iran.

846
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:19,480
For energy reasons, for
transportation reasons, Iran can

847
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:24,880
have a continuous railroad, if
you will, to China, bypassing

848
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,840
the whole city.
So China is a fact in all kinds

849
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,160
of equations about Iran.
You cannot say, Oh yeah, this

850
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,280
has nothing to do with it.
So factually it's incorrect.

851
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,720
And then another fact is the
control that the imperialists

852
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,960
want to exercise over the flow
of oil, pretty much like what

853
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:51,160
they did in Venezuela and Cuba
to choke Cuba off the Venezuela

854
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:56,360
oil, to cripple the economy,
destroy their power grid and,

855
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,600
you know, make imperialist
comeback to Cuba.

856
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:03,040
So that's the scenario that
ideally they wanted to have for

857
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,920
Iran, overthrow the regime,
control the flow of oil.

858
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,600
To what end?
To control China?

859
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,560
Because China's oil, a great
percentage of it, is supplied by

860
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,840
Iran.
And this war is exactly that, is

861
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,240
a war against China as well.
There's 2 levels to this.

862
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:24,240
One is what is the effect of
this argument, and the other one

863
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:26,320
is the argument on its own
merits.

864
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,360
In terms of the effect of this
argument, it very conveniently

865
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,560
alibis US imperialism.
And it very conveniently alibis

866
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,920
specifically the Trump
administration, including for

867
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,360
those leftists and others who
bought the kool-aid, that

868
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,600
somehow Trump was not going to
carry out the sort of regime

869
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,720
change wars that the neocons of
both the Democratic and

870
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:51,080
Republican persuasion are
infamous for.

871
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,840
So the argument becomes, oh,
Israel tricked him into it.

872
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,400
I'm sorry.
I, I, I, I have very little to

873
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,720
say on that because I think it's
a pipe dream.

874
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,280
I mean, you know, 3,000,000 dead
Vietnamese and 2 million dead

875
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,560
Koreans and a million dead
Iraqis would like to have a word

876
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,600
with you if you believe that.
Then there's the argument on its

877
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,080
own merit.
And I thought Arman captured it

878
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,280
very well.
So let's do a thought experiment

879
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,160
here.
So the US carried out this

880
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,120
kidnapping of Maduro in
Venezuela.

881
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,160
It cut off the oil from Cuba and
it also cut off that oil from

882
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,320
China because China was also
buying Venezuelan oil.

883
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,200
Now let's play the mind game
where it actually worked in

884
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,960
Iran, the decapitation of and
the murder of the heads of the

885
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,160
government and the state.
Now let's pretend let's say the

886
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:44,120
Iranian government was
overthrown and a pro US force

887
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,360
came to power.
However it came to power,

888
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,560
whether it's through the Shah or
someone else, that would be a

889
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,120
victory for the US, not only in
relation to Iran, but in

890
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,520
relation to China.
You've now cut off China from

891
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,600
Venezuelan oil and from Iranian
oil, and you've basically left

892
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,440
China with nothing but Russian
oil.

893
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,840
And then you can turn around and
make a deal with Russia.

894
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,080
Hey, let's get you out of this
Ukraine war.

895
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,280
We'll unsanction your oil.
We'll unsanction everything.

896
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,240
And, you know, all you got to do
is throw off China.

897
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,920
It's just incredible that
someone as intelligent as

898
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:25,120
Mearsheimer would think that
China has no connection to this

899
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:28,080
war.
And my biggest proof in some

900
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,360
ways that China and Russia have
connections to this war is that

901
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:37,000
China and Russia are aiding Iran
in this war through intelligence

902
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,680
because they understand where
they fit in this equation.

903
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,240
I think the main argument is he
thinks this is irrational

904
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,880
analogical on the part of the US
and that basically the US is

905
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,520
wasting blood and money on a
fake threat.

906
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,240
But I think the main problem I
have with this, whatever angle

907
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:00,120
you have, whether you're a
maggot type or, you know, you're

908
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,480
a leftist or even some radical
leftist who are making this

909
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,600
argument, I just feel like it
comes down to like, if America

910
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,160
could just be freed from Israel,
then it would be, you know.

911
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,560
America the good.
Yeah, There's another side to

912
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,960
this.
He talks about Israel as an

913
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,880
albatross on the US I would beg
to differ.

914
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:22,360
Israel is a powerful regional
power.

915
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,440
There's no question about that,
and I will not dispute the power

916
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,800
of the Israel lobby and nor will
I dispute the fact that Israel

917
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,240
tries to influence the US and in
some cases does.

918
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,480
We just went through talking
about the 1953 coup in Iran

919
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,760
against the Mosaddegh
government, where you could very

920
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:43,360
much argue that Britain very
much influenced the US to carry

921
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,680
out that coup.
In neither case does that mean

922
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,840
that either Britain or Israel
runs American foreign policy.

923
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,960
In fact, Israel is crucial to
American foreign policy in the

924
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,520
Middle East because it is the
lynch point for control of the

925
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:03,520
oil flow and of maintaining
American hegemony in the Middle

926
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,880
East.
And that could mean that could

927
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,840
mean signing peace deals with
Egypt and Jordan like they did

928
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,320
in the past.
Or it could mean the so-called

929
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,760
Abrahamic Accords like they have
now.

930
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,960
Or it could mean you just puzzle
the living daylights out of

931
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,840
anybody that doesn't abide by
your rules.

932
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,600
It does not change the yes, of
course Israel and the US don't

933
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,600
have the exactly the same
interests.

934
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,600
I think the US would have liked
to have seen a regime change.

935
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,760
I think Israel wants to do to
Iran what the US and Israel did

936
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,600
to Syria, which is just utter
destruction and chaos and

937
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,360
collapse and let it break into
its constituent parts so that it

938
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,240
basically poses no threat to
anybody.

939
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,920
That is pivotal for American
interests in this oil rich

940
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,840
region.
And it really matters not one

941
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,400
bit that the US produces its own
oil and doesn't need the oil the

942
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,080
Middle East for its own internal
consumption because power abhors

943
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,680
a vacuum.
If the US is not in control of

944
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,400
that oil, it means someone else
is going to be in control of

945
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,200
that oil, which is probably
going to be the Chinese right

946
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:04,960
now.
And I'll give you one last point

947
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,040
on that. the US has basically
been driven out of its military

948
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,160
bases in the Middle East through
the Iranian bombing.

949
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,480
God bless Iran, but you know
where they cannot be driven out

950
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,800
of The USS Zionist State of
Israel.

951
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,400
That is a permanent military
base stationed in the Middle

952
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,720
East.
Military bases in Qatar,

953
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,480
Bahrain, Saudi Arabia can come,
can come and go, but that one

954
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,600
stays.
That's why it's not an

955
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,720
albatross.
Just to add to what Israel said

956
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:39,400
about these American bases being
destroyed, it then again proves

957
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:45,000
that Israel is a military
outpost for the imperialists

958
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:51,160
that would not possibly exist
without the American bombs,

959
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:56,360
without the American dollars,
without the American direct A to

960
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,680
that country.
As Joe Biden famously said, if

961
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,600
Israel didn't exist, we'd have
to invent one to protect US

962
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,080
interests.
And if the US or the Trump

963
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,880
administration allowed itself to
be influenced by Israel into

964
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,840
this war, if we just take that
argument on its face value, that

965
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,920
doesn't change anything.
You're influenced by those you

966
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:20,200
want to be influenced by.
You accept that influence

967
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,600
because you share the program of
getting rid of the Iranian

968
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:28,200
government and humbling Iran.
So this idea that the US is

969
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:33,040
carrying out Israel's war for
Israel, the US is carrying out a

970
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,440
joint war where they are in
charge.

971
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,200
I think Trump talked about it in
The Art of the Deal.

972
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,720
The thing is, Iran is inside of
Iran for anti war.

973
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,120
They see it as an imperialist
war against them.

974
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,280
They don't see it as Israeli
war.

975
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,440
They truly see it as an
imperialist war.

976
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,960
I want to talk a little bit
about the consequences of this.

977
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:03,240
I think everyone has heard Pete
Headsets asking for another $200

978
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:07,160
billion because it takes money
to kill bad guys.

979
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,720
You can't make this up.
So we're already seeing gas

980
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,240
prices.
We're seeing crude hovering

981
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,640
around 120 a barrel now every
dollar that this goes up, we,

982
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,720
you know, everyone's going to
see a jump at the gas station.

983
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,600
I'd like to say so much for the
energy independence narrative

984
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:30,200
that some MAGA types bought into
food system, not just fuel, but

985
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,240
there's hit in petroleum in the
food system, like in terms of

986
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:37,080
fertilizer interest rates, given
the risk of inflation, we

987
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,200
probably won't see interest rate
cuts.

988
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,560
So that means borrowing costs
are going to stay high for

989
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,280
things like mortgages, credit
card debt, things going to get

990
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,680
more expensive.
And the people who profit, of

991
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,760
course, are the weapons
manufacturers, defense

992
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:55,040
companies, Lockheed Martin and
Raytheon, and the oil giants.

993
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,200
We're going to get all their war
profits.

994
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,280
Everyone is saying this is going
to be a full blown economic

995
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,800
crisis.
But the way that the media,

996
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:06,120
these loyal stenographers for
the ruling class have been

997
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,000
talking about it is there's
going to be, you know, for

998
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,440
American short term pain, for
long term gain.

999
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,680
And Cam found this clip from Fox
News, which is just golden

1000
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,400
because it's basically like, OK,
all you people at the bottom,

1001
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,040
you know, just be patient.
Like it's not as bad as the OPEC

1002
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,200
crisis.
Like OPEC crisis was so much

1003
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:26,840
worse.
So.

1004
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,200
Just be glad it's not 1973.
Yeah, she specifically says in

1005
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,240
this clip people have a short
memory.

1006
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,600
And I'm like the people who
lived through that are now in

1007
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,200
their 70s.
Like what you been talking

1008
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:38,720
about, man.
It's ridiculous.

1009
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:43,520
And it just really speaks to the
desperation to support Trump no

1010
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,960
matter what by the MAGA base.
But yeah, just crazy stuff to go

1011
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,200
with this short term pain, long
term game.

1012
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:55,200
Thing is, is such a joke when
people see gas prices start to

1013
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,040
go up, they start to think how
long is this going to go on?

1014
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,120
How bad could it get?
You know, one of the things that

1015
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,440
you notice when you look at this
story is how short people's

1016
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:06,560
attention span is for any form
of pain, right?

1017
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:08,960
And you look back, we talked a
lot about the historical

1018
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,320
perspective, and you brought up
with me this morning the issue

1019
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,960
of 1973 and what that oil
embargo was like.

1020
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,280
And, you know, people waited on
lines for two hours in the

1021
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,160
morning.
And at that point, the United

1022
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:24,160
States had been completely cut
off from oil by OPEC.

1023
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,400
We are in a totally different
environment now.

1024
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,040
We're the most dominant energy
producer in the world.

1025
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,120
So, you know, I think that
people just sort of need to take

1026
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,360
a breath and wait a minute for
some of this to shake out.

1027
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,280
Take a breath you babies.
There's not even 2 hour gas

1028
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:43,720
lines.
You guys are wimps.

1029
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,200
Suffer more you fucking
intervention.

1030
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,520
Suffer.
That's exactly what it's like.

1031
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,040
Oh God, so grotesque.
So grotesque.

1032
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,920
What was the OPEC crisis?
The long lines.

1033
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:02,160
It was it was the crisis in the
1970s when the Gulf states cut

1034
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,600
off the US from oil in response
to.

1035
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,080
The Yom Kippur, Yeah.
So I have no idea whether it'll

1036
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,320
be like as bad as the OPEC
crisis might actually might not

1037
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,960
be as bad, might be worse, but
in a different way in the sense

1038
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,000
that it might trigger the AI
bubble to finally burst.

1039
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:19,880
You know, I mean, that's what
the Financial Times was was

1040
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,640
worried about.
So I have no idea how bad or not

1041
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,880
bad it's going to get, but the
starting point for the American

1042
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,040
populace today is far worse than
what it was in the early 1970s

1043
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,560
in terms.
And people are barely making it

1044
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,240
before this deranged war was
launched.

1045
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,960
And and people are already
basically paycheck to paycheck

1046
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:43,680
if if they can even be that.
So when you're in such a

1047
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:47,640
precarious position, even minor
increases, and I don't think

1048
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,840
this will be minor, can have
profound impacts.

1049
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,760
But there's also another side to
this, which is, as Iran keeps

1050
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,480
pointing out, the Strait of
Hormuz is not closed.

1051
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,320
It's simply closed to the US and
its allies.

1052
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,640
Other ships are going through
just fine, but you have to pay

1053
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,840
to go through, and you have to
pay not in the in U.S. dollars,

1054
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,560
but in Chinese currency in yuan.
I love that.

1055
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:12,280
That's such AG move right there.
It it it is because I don't know

1056
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,240
that it what the long term
impact of it is going to be, but

1057
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,320
it's a direct challenge to the
petrodollar.

1058
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,440
And if you take the petrodollar
out of the equation, economic

1059
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,800
conditions for the US are going
to get a hell of a lot worse

1060
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:28,000
because the American currency is
artificially floated throughout

1061
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,960
the world through the fact that
two countries that are not the

1062
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:36,080
US are buying oil, 1 selling one
buying have to do it in the US

1063
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:37,800
dollar.
So I don't know what's going to

1064
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:39,520
happen.
I generally find that economists

1065
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:42,520
can't predict 100 mile an hour
train when it's 10 feet away

1066
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:45,560
from them, but it isn't going to
be good the longer this

1067
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,000
continues.
Even if you're measuring it by

1068
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:52,360
the the metrics that economists
use, which is always a stock

1069
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,160
market, which has nothing to do
with what people's actual

1070
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,320
economic day-to-day existence
is.

1071
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,920
But even if you were to measure
it by the stock market you're

1072
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,200
talking about, guess what?
The Dow isn't at what Pam Bondi

1073
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,320
was saying it was a few weeks
ago.

1074
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:10,360
It's well below the 50,000 that
she was so happy about.

1075
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,520
The impact of this war is also
global.

1076
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:19,400
It's not just how it's impacting
negatively America, it's it's

1077
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:23,600
impacting Asia directly.
There were fuel shortages in

1078
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:27,520
Thailand that they were they
were already experiencing long

1079
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:31,280
wines.
It has exposed the whole food

1080
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:35,800
production in terms of its
dependency on oil.

1081
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:40,080
So all of this has global
impacts that this war has

1082
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:45,960
exposed that how interdependent
and how fragile this system is.

1083
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,920
And Iran has not been blind to
any of these.

1084
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,320
You know, they've positioned
themselves to fully take

1085
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:57,280
advantage of the global supply
that has to go through straight

1086
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:59,440
of Orbos.
That's where their leverage is,

1087
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:00,400
yeah.
Right.

1088
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,080
They've had the upper hand
knowing what the impacts would

1089
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,000
be on the global economy and the
Gulf region.

1090
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:13,920
You know, these UEA and the
Saudis and and Kuwaitis, that

1091
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:18,880
minority of Sunni rulers who
oppressed their own people, who

1092
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,600
exploit migrant labor to enrich
themselves.

1093
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:27,560
There have been all artificially
created too, and now it's

1094
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:32,360
exposed all of these fallacies,
vulnerabilities in the region

1095
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,760
and it shows that Iranians, how
they picked up targets has been

1096
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,640
very much calculated.
Notably, they haven't bombed any

1097
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:41,920
schools or hospitals.
Exactly.

1098
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,480
They've shown a lot of restraint
in how they respond.

1099
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:49,840
Yeah, just as a small factual
point on that, both Saudi Arabia

1100
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:54,120
and Jordan are deploying troops
to Bahrain to shore up the

1101
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,640
monarchy there because it's a
Sunni monarchy installed by the

1102
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:01,400
British that rules up majority
Shia population.

1103
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,160
Ironically, one of the first
countries that has the potential

1104
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:12,080
for regime change is Bahrain, so
the impacts of the war has not

1105
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:14,600
gone the way that the
imperialists have imagined it to

1106
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:15,800
be.
Last night when we were

1107
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,320
preparing for the podcast, we
were talking a little bit about

1108
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,280
the impact and the global
repercussions, which we

1109
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,200
obviously can't predict, but
they're going to be bad.

1110
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,440
And then we were talking a
little bit about the worst case

1111
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,840
scenario being the potential for
nuclear war.

1112
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:34,840
And I think this goes back to
like the first part that I was

1113
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,960
mentioning about what you
brought up Armand, about the

1114
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:42,440
Cold War and that period,
because during the Cold War, the

1115
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:44,240
US and the Soviet Union were
enemies.

1116
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,560
There was an understanding that
nuclear weapons were like

1117
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:54,840
civilization ending.
So in even in 471947, you had

1118
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:58,960
this, the Doomsday Clock.
And the Doomsday Clock was set

1119
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:03,800
to 7 minutes to midnight in
January of 2026.

1120
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:08,600
This is even before the Iran
war, scientists set that clock

1121
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:13,040
to 85 seconds to midnight, which
is the closest that it's ever

1122
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:17,360
been to total annihilation.
And I don't know how real that

1123
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:18,880
is.
And I'm not saying like, oh, we

1124
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,200
judge everything based on the
Doomsday Clock or something like

1125
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:23,960
that.
But I think the main point is

1126
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:29,800
that the US and Israel are
playing with fire and they are

1127
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:33,240
have proven to be the crazed
lunatics in the region that are

1128
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:37,560
capable of using nukes.
And particularly in terms of

1129
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:42,000
Israel, which has the Samson
Option, which is this standing

1130
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:47,160
policy of basically, instead of
facing military defeat, Israel

1131
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,160
will plunge the entire region
into nuclear Holocaust.

1132
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,120
How real is this?
Like, what do you this is how we

1133
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,280
always end on optimism in this
show.

1134
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,840
It's very important.
So US has put in place the

1135
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:03,880
doomsday airplane for such an
attack night watch.

1136
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:08,040
The Doomsday plane has been
deployed by Americans to the

1137
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:14,840
region that has the nuclear
launch codes necessary for the

1138
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:20,560
operators of these missiles to
receive and launch these

1139
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:23,200
missiles.
The very fact that the impedance

1140
01:08:23,399 --> 01:08:27,560
directly or indirectly hint to
it is a testament to the

1141
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:35,640
barbarism, to the level of
dehumanization, militarism, the

1142
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,399
tendency of the imperialist
toward militarism, genocide, the

1143
01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:44,080
ongoing wars, and now this
threat of nuclear war is taken

1144
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:47,439
as Oh, well, that's just a part
of it, right?

1145
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:50,279
Yeah, it's really scary.
And I think one of the things

1146
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:53,479
that makes it even scarier is
the atomic bomb is nothing

1147
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,920
compared to the level of nuclear
weapons that exist today, what

1148
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:01,080
modern nuclear weapons are like.
It makes what happened in Japan

1149
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,680
seem like small.
The horror that regenerates.

1150
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,880
When the very courageous and
heroic Israeli nuclear scientist

1151
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,399
Mordechai Benuno revealed to the
world the extent of Israel's

1152
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:16,920
nuclear arsenal, something for
which he suffered 18 years in

1153
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:19,960
prison, most of them in solitary
confinement, where I believe his

1154
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,920
mind is gone and he's still not
allowed to leave Israel to this

1155
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:25,080
day, even though he was released
from prison.

1156
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,520
When he issued that release, it
was in 1986.

1157
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:33,279
And at that time, he said Israel
had about 200 nuclear nuclear

1158
01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:35,640
warheads.
I see journals that I very much

1159
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,160
respect still quote that number
of 200.

1160
01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:41,319
You got to be really dumb to
believe Israel only still has

1161
01:09:41,319 --> 01:09:44,520
200 nuclear warheads between
1986 and the present.

1162
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,359
Their nuclear arsenal must be
significantly more than that.

1163
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:53,120
So whether or not you are scared
of nuclear war, people are

1164
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:54,880
definitely seeing the effects of
this.

1165
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:59,040
There's have been a lot of
studies and surveys showing that

1166
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:02,680
the majority of the population
is against this war and thinks

1167
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:06,440
it's futile.
They're opposed to ground troops

1168
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:12,280
being sent in, but we haven't
seen a level of opposition in

1169
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:15,240
the same way that we have in
previous wars.

1170
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:17,920
I haven't seen massive protests
in the last few weeks.

1171
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:21,440
I think a bigger part of that
might be the economic reality,

1172
01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:25,040
like that the working class is
drowning and their livelihood is

1173
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,480
at stake and stuff.
But I'm also curious about some

1174
01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:31,200
of the political reasons.
I know Ezra, you and I were

1175
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,880
talking about some of the
possible reasons like hostility

1176
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:38,680
to the Iranian regime, people
scared of the repression against

1177
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:42,240
protesters over the last period,
kind of crushing defeatism.

1178
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,160
You know what?
So what is your take on why, if

1179
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:49,120
there is so much anti war
sentiment, why haven't we seen

1180
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:52,960
this manifesting itself in
massive demonstrations

1181
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,280
outpouring against US
imperialism?

1182
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,680
I think there are 4 overlapping
reasons, some of which you

1183
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:01,680
mentioned.
I think within the American

1184
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:04,720
populace, there is still a
degree of hostility to the

1185
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,760
Iranian government, even among
people opposed to the war.

1186
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:11,360
The second reason is, I think
the massive repression initially

1187
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:14,920
unleashed by Biden but then
intensified under Trump against

1188
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,840
pro Palestine protesters.
I think that repression has

1189
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,400
taken a toll.
There is fear because to go out

1190
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,120
against this war on the streets
to show your face, it means

1191
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,320
you're going to go against the
holy state of Israel.

1192
01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:30,800
And you've already seen the
repercussions of that.

1193
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:34,960
Three, I think there's a
widespread feeling in the US

1194
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:38,640
that protesting isn't going to
do anything both structurally

1195
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,120
and in relation to the specific
administration.

1196
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:44,360
Orange Caligula isn't going to
listen to what liberal minded

1197
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:48,160
opponents of the war think, and
disgruntled Trump supporters

1198
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,600
aren't going to protest.
So I think people are just

1199
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,920
trying to get by and are
generally afraid mainly for

1200
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,560
their livelihoods.
And 4th and probably or perhaps

1201
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:02,040
most importantly, the Democrats
support the war, or at the very

1202
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,560
least they support its regime
change aims, if not the

1203
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:09,360
particular bumbling ways this
government is doing it.

1204
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,080
It's true that there are
Democrats against the war, but

1205
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:16,360
no one who is prominent or
capable of bringing out large

1206
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:19,560
numbers.
And I would also say those

1207
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,480
Democrats who say they oppose
the war begin every statement by

1208
01:12:23,480 --> 01:12:27,400
denouncing the Iranian
government, which reinforces the

1209
01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:29,960
first point, which is you're
supposed to hate this

1210
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,240
government.
And so rinse and repeat.

1211
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,800
Those are the, I think the main
reasons why you're not seeing

1212
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:40,120
those big protests.
Only thing that I can add is in

1213
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:44,040
case of defeat body use
imperialists would have

1214
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:48,160
consequences I don't want to
predict but defeat increased

1215
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:51,280
conditions for more discontent.
Because, you know, when the

1216
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:54,680
roller class is weak, when they
lose their narrative, especially

1217
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:58,560
the political narrative, then
there's other voices for the

1218
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:02,120
platform to emerge.
And we should be prepared for

1219
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:05,600
that.
Having a correct analysis of the

1220
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:10,440
present situation, which I think
we do, in terms of defending the

1221
01:13:10,440 --> 01:13:14,920
right of Iran to defend itself,
the right of Iran to have access

1222
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,640
to nuclear weapons and the means
to carry those out, the right of

1223
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:23,920
Iran to develop nuclear energy,
nuclear technology, the right of

1224
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,920
Iran to be a sovereign country.
These would weaken the

1225
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:32,280
imperialists regionally and
globally and at home that would

1226
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:36,280
create conditions for class
trouble in Iran.

1227
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:40,480
We would be in favor of
independent working class action

1228
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:45,600
to assist in war efforts to
defend their factories against

1229
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:50,920
imperialist domination, and in
America to actually ask for the

1230
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:55,080
defeat of US imperialism.
Because it's the US imperialists

1231
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,880
who are exploiting the American
workers, the American people.

1232
01:13:59,480 --> 01:14:04,320
So no matter how it pans out, it
will have a profound impact on

1233
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,960
class and world politics.
I very much agree, and I want to

1234
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:13,160
just very explicitly say that it
is in the interests of American

1235
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:17,160
workers for the American ruling
class to be defeated in its

1236
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:22,120
vicious war against Iran.
The same ruling class that kills

1237
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:26,560
little babies and little girls
in Iran and civilians and just

1238
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:31,560
wants to annihilate that country
is the one that is starving you,

1239
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:36,200
depressing your wages, not
allowing you to raise your

1240
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:40,080
family or to have the means to
have a decent life.

1241
01:14:40,480 --> 01:14:42,160
It is not Iran that's doing
that.

1242
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:43,960
It's not Putin that's doing
that.

1243
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:45,760
It's not China that's doing
that.

1244
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:51,200
It is your our ruling class, and
that's what needs to be

1245
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,240
defeated.
And with that in mind, I'd like

1246
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:58,280
to close by giving the last word
to Rosa Luxembourg, who wrote

1247
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:02,480
this amid the First World War.
Because I think even though it's

1248
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:06,840
a different situation, it
perfectly captures the system of

1249
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:11,000
capitalist imperialism that we
are living through today.

1250
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:16,880
Shamed, dishonored, waiting in
blood and dripping in filth.

1251
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:21,800
Thus capitalist society stands
not, as we usually see it,

1252
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:26,000
playing the roles of peace and
righteousness, of order, of

1253
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:30,520
philosophy, of ethics, but as a
roaring beast, as an orgy of

1254
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:35,720
anarchy, as a pistolinial
breath, devastating culture and

1255
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,200
humanity.
So it appears in all it's

1256
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:49,320
hideous nakedness.
But we don't love anybody who

1257
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:52,200
doesn't love us.
We do appreciate you listening

1258
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:55,080
to Unwashed and Unruly.
If you hate this, something's

1259
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:57,560
probably working.
Thank you to our friend Armand

1260
01:15:57,560 --> 01:15:59,880
for joining us.
And make sure to tap that follow

1261
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:03,200
button so you remember to listen
to our 20th episode.